NROI Podcast
Want to know more about the USPSA and SCSA Rules? Need to keep up on the rules changes? The NROI Podcast is the place to get the rules, from the source. Join us for discussions on the rules, history of the sport, and other topics.May contain infrequent use of mild profanity.
NROI Podcast
111. NROI Podcast November 2026 #1
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In this episode we discuss some rule changes coming and when the 2027 rules are likely to drop then we dive into the mail bag to answer more of your questions.
Note: Transcriptions done by AI or other means may not be entirely accurate. This podcast, and any transcription thereof, does not constitute an official NROI ruling. Questions should be sent to rules@uspsa.org.
Introduction
SPEAKER_02This is the NROI podcast, your source for factual information for USPSA and SPSA competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Oxfords Institute, United States Practical Shooting Association, and Steel Challenge Shooting Association. All role books can be found at USPSA.org slash rules, STSA.org slash rules, and on the USPSA and STSA apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Rule discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules should be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 111, recorded early November 2026.
Rangemaster App Updates And Class Limits
SPEAKER_02Well everyone, welcome to the NRI podcast. I'm Kevin Eml, and with me tonight, as usual, are our director, Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy.
SPEAKER_01Good evening.
SPEAKER_02And our assistant director, Jody Human. Good evening, Jody.
SPEAKER_00Good evening.
SPEAKER_02All right. So let's see, Tori, you're off wandering around. You're actually on leave.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, but you uh you still showed up to do the podcast, and we appreciate that. So um you just out wandering around looking at leaves?
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02Good thing to do this time of year. All right. Um any announcements we need to go over? Other than what I have on the list here.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_01Uh we've updated uh some of the requirements for that. So there's a checkbox on the app that says you have to read it, and there's a link that says you to the new requirements. It's mostly just some timing things on you know getting your work done in a timely fashion, etc. So it's all explained in the in the link to that. If you're deciding you want to apply for the Rangemaster program, the app's open. Uh there's a checkbox for that. There's a checkbox that says you verified your email because in the past we've had an email address on there that was no longer being monitored. So both of those have to be checked, or else it doesn't progress. And um we can see that on there, or I can see it on the admin side. Um, but it's not going to show on the normal application that you check those boxes. But um the other thing we have is class size limits. So if you're planning a an RO class or a CRO class, the limit is 35 before we need to have another instructor. I think that's in there.
SPEAKER_02CROs less than that. 24.
SPEAKER_0124. Okay. Yeah. The CRO is 24.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we can't even really take the CRO above that um unless you have a whole lot of A's. So we can set up a lot of stages.
SPEAKER_01And most of that has to do with timing. So the bigger the class, the more questions we have, and the longer the class, the seminar part works, the in-room, in classroom part. And then 35 folks is a lot of people to monitor as you're going through student stages for the Wi-Fi exercise. I mean, if you just set one of them up or both of them up and do them sequentially, then it's okay. But still, 35 people is a lot of people to work with, and it takes quite a bit of time in the morning. So uh second uh second instructor can help out with both of those things.
SPEAKER_02So well, I mean the in-class exercises take twice as long. Right. And you know, once takes twice as long. It just everything it still balls really fast. So it makes for and everybody gets grumpy because it's taking longer, so it's a longer day. And grumpy. What? What? Yeah. With with two instructors, it's easy. It's actually, I mean, I've I've teamed taught a couple times and I actually really enjoy it. Um, and it's we everybody kind of benefits because they see a little bit different perspective, maybe. Um, and we get some pretty good discussions going. Um, and we with two of us circulating during the in-class exercises, we have a chance to actually get to every group while they're doing those and help them out if they need it. Otherwise, with the single instructor, you're never gonna make it to everybody before they're done. So um, but yeah, so yep. And it's not usually a problem to get a second instructor if your facility will hold that many people. We've done Paul Hernandez and I did one, it was uh 65 at uh Rio a number of years ago. So um, you know, we can do it. Um when we did the uh NROI Academies, um those were pretty big classes, but we had every all the instructors there, so that was a lot easier to handle that way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've done a class at 35 by myself. Yeah, I've done 38 by myself and it was not fun. Um, you know, and the other thing is too, it's you have to remember that the instructors need to fly out on Sunday. And they're flights just are not as plentiful as they used to be. Um and so if you stretch Sunday, um, especially if you're in an area that doesn't allow gunfire before noon, um, just figure you're probably gonna be picking up a hotel room Sunday night um so that they can fly home on Monday morning. Uh because it's just it's getting very difficult um to fly and you know, and do the class and get to the airport at a reasonable time and get out, you know, unless you're at a big airport like Denver or something that has flights you know every cut every hour. Um but yeah, you get out in some of those smaller airports, it gets a little it gets a little interesting um getting in and out. So okay, anything else we need to do?
New Short Rules Videos Coming Soon
SPEAKER_01Um so I think I mentioned before we did a bunch of short videos that are gonna be rules inserts.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If I didn't, um uh Scoutness has sent them to me. Uh they're in the editing process right now, so he sent me a bunch of rough drafts of the of the videos. They all look pretty good. A few little uh edits we have to make to them, some corrections, but I think they're gonna be a valuable uh add-in to the rules. They're they're short, right? It's just a short, quick explanation of what that rule says or what it means. Um, some of them demonstrate like safety on, safety off kind of thing. So um, and you you know you might think, well, that's pretty elementary. I know everything to know about that, but you gotta consider that we trained uh 97 seminars worth of students, right, this year, which is if you average 20 in a seminar, we train what 1800, 1900 people, yeah, new ROs that are gonna be out on the range operating. So we wanted to build a tool that kind of helps explain some of the uh more misunderstood and misinterpreted rules in the book. And this is just a start. We picked the kind of the 20 most prominent, um, but we're still gonna work on some more. I've uh I've tried to add that to next year's budget, and I think that's gonna go. So uh we'll work on another 20 or so for for next year and continue to add those in. And I don't think there's any reason they can't be on the uh on the uh Vimeo that we use and maybe just have them as as field reference, uh just as a general thing on our webpage, on the NRY.org page. So uh it's just a met a way to get some more information out there to people. Some things bear repeating, and you know, when you've been doing it for 20 years, and you might be doing it wrong for those 20 years, uh or we suddenly change the rule. Or the rule has changed, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so well, and it's also not only for new ROs, but also for new members. I mean, look at how much how many new members we have. Uh you know, fully Mike Foley was always good at reminding us that just because we wrote an article about something a year ago, there's a whole bunch of new people that have joined since then that didn't get to read that article.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they didn't see it.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, that's why we tend to repeat things a lot. Um, and we kind of go off, you know, at least for NRI, we're going off questions we get, right? Oh, well, we've getting a lot of questions about that this week. It's been a couple of years since we published a blog post. I guess we should revisit that. Right. Or yeah, like you said, the rules changed and now it's completely different. Um, so hopefully this helps clarify things for new competitors as well. So when they go to our matches, they won't be as uh lost.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so well, there's some things that just people get confused. They're so simple. It's like it's they're so simple, and people for whatever reason overthink it. And well, it can't be that easy. It must mean this. No, it really is that easy. Yeah. So um, so you know, and a picture is a picture is worth a thousand words, so um that can that can really really help. Um so all right. Anything else?
SPEAKER_01I don't have anything.
SPEAKER_02Jody, anything from you?
SPEAKER_01No, I'm good.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, let's just dive in then.
Steel Challenge Belt And Holster Safety
SPEAKER_02Um first question out of the mailbag um was about equipment and steel challenge. Um and this this question also applies to USPSA, although the rule the rules that we use in USPSA, they don't they aren't in the Steel Challenge book um yet. We're adding those. Um so a new competitor who was shooting his first match had his gun belt on the outside of an untucked t-shirt with nothing attaching the belt to his inner belt. This was causing some unsafe movement when holstering and unholstering his firearm. In an effort to show the competitor the rule covering this, the match director and the range officer could find nothing in the rules covering it. We're pretty sure this was a rule in the past. We want to make sure we're giving the competitor the correct information. And yeah, this is some of the rules that those of us that are familiar with US PSA competition rules are used to having that just for whatever reason didn't make it across into steel challenge. So um but is that in that I think that part got in the update for this year.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. In fact, there's a rules committee meeting tonight. I don't know if it's over with or not, but uh that was one of the things that that we added in for them to discuss.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So there's I did a little project going through the first four or five chapters um com and the glossary comparing what was missing out of and applicable, because there's stuff that's missing out of the SPSA competition rules, which is not applicable in steel challenge. So there's no reason to take that cross. Um, and I came up with quite a few things, but I didn't get all the way through the book. Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it was it was less of an issue when we didn't have uh USPSA ROs, as many USP, you know, steel challenge used to be a separate sport, right? And so it used to be they were two distinct sports, and now especially when we have USPSA trained ROs working SCSA, they get kind of like, well, I thought this rule was in everything. And usually what happens it's in multi-gun, sometimes it's in competition, and then it's not in SCSA. So yeah, but also there's times where it doesn't make sense to carry a rule over to SCSA. But SCSA is also grown.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it has.
SPEAKER_00And things are coming up, right? You know, um, well, yeah, probably a good major, I don't know, a large portion of the uh people competing in the Steel Challenge or shooting rampires where it doesn't matter if they have a holster. Um but there's still quite a few people who do, and they need to have a safe holster that they can draw their firearm from without breaking safety rules or sweeping their hand or anything like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and just just to close the circle on the thought, the the rule um used to require belt loops or keepers way back when the competition rules.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And now we just require firmly affixed and it doesn't matter. Securely affixed, yes.
SPEAKER_00Um which means you should be able to draw your gun or take a mag out of a pouch without your belt moving.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And if you have a holster such that you have to hold it open with your with one hand while you holster the gun, um, throw that away. Um because that's not a good holster. Go get something else. Um injection molded plastic, kaydex, what have you. Um but those floppy holsters like that are actually dangerous. That they cause a fair number of discharges because the holster folds in on itself into the trigger guard and basically pulls the trigger, depresses the trigger when you're holstering the gun. So um in fact, uh famed director Michael Mann shot himself this last week holstering his handgun on a shooting range. Um or so the media reported.
SPEAKER_01Oops.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it was just a flesh moon.
SPEAKER_01So the key part of that question though to me is that uh causing some unsafe movement, right? Uh what kind of unsafe movement? I I'm gonna guess that he was having to hold the holster and draw the gun, but uh and that's a sweeping problem, right? So it needs to be secured. And uh to me, it would be common sense that you would have them fix that, right? But even if you can't show them a rule, it's like, look, man, you're sweeping yourself, you know.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but we we did add it to the steel challenge rule, so it's in there and it's virtually identical to the competition rules covering holster.
SPEAKER_00It's been proposed BI to SCSA.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Hasn't been approved yet by the board of directors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. I just want to make that clear.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know why they wouldn't. Yeah, if all those changes are approved, then we'll have to update the Steel Challenge RO presentation. And I'm completely redoing the Steel Challenge endorsement course um this year because it's needs to, it really needs it. And this was a good excuse to completely completely redo it um for adding in all these rules. So all right, moving on.
Taping Or Occluding A Red Dot
SPEAKER_02Um so an RO in our range told us that if we tape our optic um or occlude the site for a stage, that is the rules violation because it wasn't done for the entire match. On a couple of days in the afternoon, we get lots of sun that will blow out the dot. So stape tape stops that. Is that illegal? Troy, I think you answered this one.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's not, and in fact, it's that's a topic that I used in one of the uh one of the uh quick field reference videos that an occluded optic is fine, and the rule specifically allows you to add or remove that tape at any time. So if you occlude it with a scope cover, right, rather than a piece of tape, um, you know, you can you can cut your scope cover so that it occludes the backside of the optic and you can still see the dot inside. And you know, you would take on first pass and well, how the hell do you shoot like that? But your brain accommodates it, right? And there's a lot of people that shoot occluded all of the time. But the rule is was modified a couple years ago to specifically allow you to add or remove an occlusion on your optic at any point during the match, it does not have to stay there for the whole match.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've already I've tried that, but my my brain, no.
SPEAKER_03It don't work.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's because I'm so right eye dominant. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the the very first dot site I ever saw was actually on a shotgun, and it was just a dot. Um, there was you couldn't see through it, it was just a bright dot. And if you had both eyes open, that dot was on your target. It was it was weird. Um, but I got used to it pretty fast. And so I couldn't afford it, but it was fun to play with on somebody else's shotgun.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00No, I I I actually think uh I was the one that got that rule changed. Um not me personally, but from a call at a match. Um, I was at a match where it was kind of the same thing. In early morning, the sun was right in the competitor's eyes, and a competitor had cut a ammo box that made a little sun shade for his dot. And um I didn't bump him to open because I wasn't sure um if that was not allowed because the rules were what rule was worded did say specifically, but I did ask Troy about it later that day. Um because you know, and it was it's kind of like putting a rain shield on. Um I know uh the birds fast fires used to come with like a rain shield you could put on. Um so it's just kind of like yeah, it's not there the whole match, but we specifically updated the rule to to allow it. So if someone if someone tells you it's not leak allowed, tell them go read 518.
SPEAKER_02Very last sentence. Yes, I think is the one that is.
SPEAKER_00Second to last sentence.
SPEAKER_02Second to last. Somewhere in there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's it's a long rule. It's later on in the case.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, last sentence. Scope covers, tape, dust covers, and bungee care cords are exempt from this requirement. It's basically the rule that says you can't change your gun or modify your sights during without RM approval.
SPEAKER_02That isn't allowed modification. Okay. Um and with seemingly everybody shooting dots these days, that's probably a good thing to for everybody to be aware of. Um if you've never tried it when you're doing dry fire, try it. It's uh it's a different experience. And yeah, it's it does work for most people, it doesn't work for everybody. I have to think about it too much for it to work for me, so I don't use it. I can make it work, but it's my problem is my eye, I can switch dominance between eyes. And so if it does if I don't force dominance, then it doesn't work. And it's like, no, I have to think about it, and I don't want I don't want something I have to think about.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's like I know, like I think my aunt and mom did this where they did with the contacts, one was for close, one where it was for distance. Yeah. Yeah, that would drive me nuts. Uh-huh. Well, how the hell do you drive with that? My mom's got the glasses now, but my aunt still does it. And I don't know how the hell she does it.
SPEAKER_01Um I don't I don't know how you switch dominance. How do you do that?
SPEAKER_02I just I can just do it. I always have been I always have been able to do that.
SPEAKER_00So that means you don't really have a dominant eye.
SPEAKER_02I don't have a dominant eye. If you know, I'm just normally wake up in the morning, my right eye is the dominant eye. But if it gets tired, it just switches over my left eye's my dominant eye. Which when that happens at a match sucks because then I have to think about it and make my right eye go back to work. Wow. Um, but yeah, it's yeah, I drive optometrists crazy um with my eyes. Um and uh looks like a superpower. Yeah, thankfully, Jody and I both have the same optometrist, and she is well, the guy we had before was awesome. And they when he retired, he referred us to another young lady who is incredible. She's a really good optometrist, and um she understands all of our weird things that we need. Um, so um it works well. All right, uh, let's see. Regarding
Unrestored Targets And Reshoot Decisions
SPEAKER_02an unrestored target, the target has four hits on it, and the competitor only shot the target with two shots, and all of the targets have been pasted already, and it isn't known which of the four hits are his. Can a range officer or a range master uh clear the range and have that competitor shoot another target to see if they can compare and determine which hits were his hits on the target that was unrestored? Or this is is this just a reshoot according to 914?
SPEAKER_00And well, I mean, the hits are all that close that you can't tell.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean for.
SPEAKER_01think of time I would just yeah it's re shoot time right um and and I'm assuming that they're not all alphas because or all Charlie's right on the same score because otherwise we don't have a discussion yeah right I have heard of this I have heard of a Rangemaster trying to score a double right yeah they yeah they want to see yeah have have the competitor shoot another target in a clean spot so he can see what that hole looks like and that makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah because you're trying to see how it fills the circle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I mean I think you're gonna waste some time doing that you're gonna do something that's sort of unorthodox and make people scratch their head there's no rule that would prevent it I guess uh you're supervising a competitor but um you're gonna spend some time and and do something a little bit out of the ordinary and probably still end up getting a reshoot. Yeah because if they if they all look alike then how are you gonna tell right I mean they might be different but that you know if you're shooting blue bullets right the blue used to come off i somebody told me the other day that they don't anymore but so you'd leave a blue grease ring on a target and then a a gray or black uh and that was that was easily determined but I don't know with this I mean unless they look so drastically different that you say well I'll shoot this target I think one of these I can tell okay and I mean that competitor may be complaining that he doesn't want to reshoot.
SPEAKER_00I want you to score my target right so I don't know this is this is where even for like the double instance sometimes smart ROs will have some people hold off taping the target that's nearby. Yeah right right if they know there's gonna be this kind of situation. So there is another target for the ROs and the RM to look at to see right now I maybe what they're saying is not so much let's say you could tell there was two hits and two hits and what they're trying to determine is which of those two hits came from the current competitor.
SPEAKER_02Yeah right because depending on what kind what powder the competitor is using or battery loads using you do see darker versus lighter grease rings.
SPEAKER_00Right. But hopefully you know I mean I know when I'm an RO if I do come up with a target like this and I just scored a target I'll be like don't take that target just so I can have a reference to look at it. But usually by that point you're like oh no all his holes have really nice dark grease rings aka bird marks and so usually when I roll up to a target like that has four hits I'm like oh these are the two from this guy right because they look like the ones I've been looking at for the previous 12 targets.
SPEAKER_02It was so much easier when people shot other calibers than nine. I know yeah everyone shooting nine is really complicated this you know everybody shooting jacketed nine and you know when we used to have people shooting semi wide cutters and shooting other calibers 40 yeah you know and shooting 40s and well I shot semi wide cutters in my 40s sometimes and uh um but you know the 45 guys a lot of the 45 guys used to shoot semi wide cutters and um those things big old trash can lid sized holes you know those are real easy to score oh yeah you could score them from like 50 feet back yeah and now you know everybody's shooting essentially for all intents and purposes the same bullet um and it's it makes it more challenging so yeah but yeah so so we just need to you know because it used to be like okay you'd have a lemon shooter shooting 40 and then you'd have a production shooter shooting nine then you may have a single stack guy but usually a lot of times you didn't have back to back shooters shooting the same caliber and now pretty much you can count on one hand the number of people shooting anything but nine yeah at a match. So yeah my squat at factory gun had one guy shooting 45 one guy shooting 40 and um I was shooting well I mean 38 short colt which for all intents and purposes is a nine yeah um and everybody else was nines and it was yeah it was just scoring the same stuff over and over so but it was kind of fun having somebody shooting something other than nine we need to bring major power factor back. I you get no argument from me.
SPEAKER_00Except that you know 40 components are harder to come by now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well 40 graph is yeah um it's not near as much of that stuff once fired laying around as there used to be nope.
Post Match Video And Late Penalties
SPEAKER_02Alright moving on uh have a question about seeing post match evidence of cheating um in the age of video camera being allowed as evidence to avoid DQs and penalties we have to acknowledge that is a double-edged sword that can prove that an offense was also committed when a competitor posts video to social media platform which shows that they should have had a penalty been bumped open or bumped open per the rule book but the arbitration time is elapsed what is the function that should correct this mistake in most individual sports with a governing body there is a method of correcting competitive inequity but there doesn't seem to be a true process in the rules what a can of worms that's right well we usually we usually let the court of social media deal with it I mean the problem is with videos you're only getting half a story sometimes right yep I believe the situation which was with this email was someone was shooting L10 yeah clearly shot over 10 over 11 rounds without a reload correct I yeah I just eliminated that from yeah which there was two more paragraphs to this just a reminder to all the ROs when someone's shooting L10 production usually single stack and revolver can't load more rounds than they need but anyway any low couch division you should be counting you should be counting well even single stack you need to know if they're shooting minor major or minor major but yeah and there are revolvers that hold more than six or eight well there aren't too many that I'm aware of that hold more than eight or other than 22.
SPEAKER_00Well I know people can shoot major with something that holds more than six.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah I can shoot major with my eight shot I mean it's a 357 revolver I can shoot major 357 out of what I want to but when I pull that trigger for the seventh time it's welcome to open.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00So well unless you just don't put two rounds on your moon clips.
SPEAKER_02Yeah because that makes reload so much more fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah figure out where those empty six bang bang yeah no um yeah you can't download moon clips that's just not a bright idea I think with this is I I mean he said it was cheating I you know I don't know I don't think that's the right word I think it was this guy could have just done something inadvertent forgot his count you know did something I don't know that we loaded his mags up the bottom I mean bottom line is that we we truly don't have a way to fix that after the after the fact once the results are declared final the match is over now if this guy knew he did that on purpose uh and he didn't bring it up well that's sort of a character thing right but um you know we're we're not gonna get into the business of reviewing video and saying hey you got to fix this we got to fix that because the rule book does say that once the match has been declared final then it's over with there's nothing else to do right um now that doesn't mean that if you have a say you have a classifier that was incorrectly set that we're that you shouldn't you know uh not submit that classifier that's not uh really the same thing but um in this case you know when they when they post video to a social media platform it's after the fact basically um so there's no way to for anybody to fix that I mean if they're showing it to you real time um I don't know if somebody not at the match can arbitrate that has that ever happened can you just call in and say hey I saw something on a yeah on the live stream I saw something on the live stream and I want a third party orbit I I I don't know that's crazy but um we don't have a we don't have a a rule that says we can go back and fix that right and I mean we use video evidence to either confirm or or or deny an incident that happened right we either prove it or we or it doesn't and the call stands or it or it's overturned.
SPEAKER_02So that's an on the spot kind of thing and a during the match kind of thing but there's nothing to do after the match is over with regardless of what you saw in a video and you know uh I mean I I didn't see the video maybe maybe the guy wasn't in L10 I don't know yeah well I think in this instance he placed well in in that match in L10 but um you know that that being said most matches don't have many L10 competitors right so he could have come in third out of three it's hard to say top three finish yeah you know it's it's like people ask me how I did it factor gun I said you know came in top 25 oh that's really good you know 21 competitors and I was the 21st um right it's all about the marketing right um and how you spin it so um yeah so yeah it's uh yeah I mean if if you know and even somebody else on the squad if they had spoken up and said hmm I I think he fired more than 11 rounds and here's my video um you know then yeah that we could look at then we could look at it at the match.
SPEAKER_01Yeah um but we don't want to get into that product that's a whole process thing I mean how does the the statement that individual sports with a governing body a method of correcting competitive inequity how do they do that I mean if you look at some of the major team sports there's video all over the place and if they miss something in a game oh well look they missed it. Yeah that's the only thing I know of that they'll review afterwards is they don't fix it they don't know the NFL the NFL will issue fines yeah um based upon you know if there was a flag and you know it was you know in sportsman like conduct or whatever they'll review those and if they think yeah no 15 yards wasn't enough here's a six thousand dollar fine um that's that's that's entire that's not um you know they're not watching the whole game back going hey did you see that guy clip that other guy oh well we need to find him no that's not what's happening and it doesn't even if they find you it doesn't affect the results of this of the event right no so this is like Jody mentioned this is an RO kind of thing you got to count right you got to pay attention you got to know what division that guy's shooting so as a as a scorekeeper maybe a best practice is to call the name of the guy that's coming up to shoot and then call out his division so everybody knows oh I got to count rounds for this you should count rounds all the time anyway yeah the you know let the RO know but even a scorekeeper even if you don't call it out you'd be like oh he's shooting L10 I'm gonna help out my fellow RO and count rounds.
SPEAKER_02Count rounds right so yeah everybody on that line should be counting rounds right oh yeah I know of an instance where an open shooter was busted because the ro that was running him was counting rounds and when he got to 34 he went hmm wow yeah well if you put the if you put a plus four base pad on a one step yeah that's that's a really good open mag capacity and that's how he got caught um because the because that ro was counting and I don't know how did he have to borrow somebody else's fingers and toes or well and it must have been an over well I guess it could have been a 32 round course with some misses but yeah you know so yeah it was but yeah he got the when he got the 34 he went hmm and called me to the stage and said you got your mag gauge yeah the person was unhappy um yeah got to shoot for no score and that was the old thing and we've talked about it before of taking all your mags apart in the hotel the night before the match and cleaning everything and then reassembling them um and not realizing that you put your plus whatever base pad on your 172. So yeah yeah he would have got you know he might have gotten popped at chrono depends on which which mag he put down but well if if I was working chrono and he walked up with that mag on his belt I'd be like I want to I want to look at that one yeah so anyway um yeah I don't know how the hell we do I mean I know of a a sister shooting sport that for a while um was DQing people after the fact the match was well over and they were issuing DQs to people and that didn't go over very well so um that's probably not good. Okay.
Clearing Guns Before Going Downrange
SPEAKER_02Um this was a steel challenge question but it it's applicable even in in US PSA competition or in multi gun um nowhere in the rules to say the firearm must be cleared before the RO or anybody else goes down range such as to reset a target paste a target that didn't get pasted reset a popper that blew over or whatever. Do you think we should add something that says the firearm should be cleared if so what range commands would be applicable? Looking at the 8.3.x series stop doesn't seem applicable but 8367 says unload to show clear is used when stop is used perhaps adding or when clearing firearms before going downrange to spec the plate or some such um this is one of those things that has changed over the years so I've been in the support um you know we used to make people do all sorts of crazy things like put your hands on top of your head or hold your arms straight up or whatever I mean what I typically will do is I just send somebody downrange and I just stand right in front of the shooter and say do not put your hand near your gun and you know it takes 15 seconds to go down and tape the target or set up a popper um and as long as you're there controlling them they're not gonna nothing bad's gonna happen um so that's kind of the way I do it now um I don't know what how do you guys handle it I do the same thing I don't make them get in a prisoner position or anything silly like that I just tell them stand easy I uh in seminars I always tell people uh I've yet to see somebody draw their gun and shoot a guy that's going stand a popper up for them right so I mean it used to be like you said turn your back put your hands on your head all that stuff like why just stand there right your gun's loaded I'm supervising you uh if you want to have them on load and show clear then do it right there's nothing wrong with that you can start over again when it's cleared off especially if there's going to be a little bit of a time lag depending on what they're doing downrange.
SPEAKER_01This was specifically came in for steel challenge and you're asking about when they go to score a plate. Most of the time that competitor's gonna want to go with you. If they have a center fire handgun and it's loaded uh that's probably completely up to you to to say hey you know holster your gun and let's go down there and look if you're more comfortable having them unload and so clear then do that. Some competitors may be more comfortable doing that. Right. Uh since we don't have a lot of movement in Steel Challenge then they might not be confident in their holster or whatever. But I mean I would recommend it in Steel Challenge because it's a kind of a totally different handling situation in some cases.
SPEAKER_02Especially for the rim fire folks.
SPEAKER_01Right or so yeah for those guys yeah you got to do something with the gun I mean but and you know it's amazing to me how many people in Steel Challenge are versus USPSA that are not comfortable carrying their carbine from the sideburm where they unbagged it to the shooting line right yeah right most people just bring it up in a case that's the way they do it that's fine it doesn't really hurt anything um but yeah I mean I think that this has also been proposed to the rules committee uh specifically for steel challenge uh not so much for for USTSA but um unload show clear before you go down and score a target and then everybody's good you got a you got a clear gun you got an RO work walking down to score a target and everybody's on the same page so yeah and it's it's really a mess in multi-gun because say you're doing a three gun stage with all three guns that loaded out there right um what are you gonna do go clear everything out no that's just that's just crazy yeah so well if it's in a barrel or stage where it's not gonna be pointed at you that's one thing but yeah you it would be crazy to not so hard to unload a semi-auto rifle but a pain in the in the rear end to unload a two-fed shotgun you know yeah yeah it's yeah so yeah it's yeah you know it's it's it's perfectly safe um despite what some in the media want to tell you um they just don't jump out of the holster and do silly things so right we won't mention that one model
Ammo And Gear On Safe Tables
SPEAKER_01from that one manufacturer which has never actually been proven um let's see uh there we are um at a major match I saw a competitor take her gun off and bag in the safety area in the safe area I then saw her take her belt take her gun off and bag in the safety area then saw her take her belt with loadered magazines on it and placed it on the safe table um then she went to the restroom I was not Sarah O'sta stage so I brought it to attention of CRO on the stage and he said that was okay she was not handling the ammo I know that there are fine lines in every situation but that is splitting hairs too close for me.
SPEAKER_02In my opinion she should have been DQ'd I was always under the impression that you could have your ammo on your person as long as you did not touch it and never put it on the safe table. Um no sorry you're wrong that's perfectly allowed but you know yeah if she pulls out a magazine out of a magazine pouch and is playing with it that's yeah then you're right but no she's handling I mean she never touched the mags yeah I mean she's playing with fire what if she accidentally touches the mag you know kind of thing but yeah well but I mean inadvertently brushing your forearm across the mag is not touching it yeah but you know you're gonna pull up your belt and you grab a mag instead well yeah hey what do I do with this yeah and putting it on the safe table I I there's no difference putting it on the ground or on a safe table as long as you haven't handled a magazine you're fine right yeah and every I it seems like I don't know that we had this happen this year at least at not at factory gun but I've been to so many matches where all of a sudden you know we RM the stage whatever there's an abandoned gun and you go over there and there's a gun sitting on a safe table and you go well yeah it's right next to the porta bodies hey anybody in the porta body leave their gun out here and you're yeah I did you know it's I mean that's what that is what people do. I don't know given what some of the weird things that have been started occurring at matches with people showing up specifically looking to try and swipe firearms um I don't know that I would leave my gun on the safe table anymore but um you know maybe put it in my gun bag or you know and you know where it's out of sight but um that's you know that's it's perfectly acceptable. So that is not handling ammo. All right.
Fixed Time Rules Virginia Count Limits
SPEAKER_02Um and this is an easy one but you know if one person asks the question other people are probably thinking and apparently everybody at this match was was uh wondering so if I read this correctly are all fixed time stages Virginia Count with no steel um per roll nine two dot four. We had this question in our local match. Correct. Six time is Virginia count, and you cannot have steel in Virginia count.
SPEAKER_00It can only be cardboard, no steel targets.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Cardboard only.
SPEAKER_01So let let's differentiate though. Virginia count limits the number of shots you can fire, limits the number of hits allowed on a target. As specified, no steel in either Virginia count or fixed time. But a lot of people go, it's just Virginia count. Well, it's not really because it's fixed time, because you can have uh you could have some extra shots or you could have some extra hits, sure, but you know, in a lot of cases you're gonna have misses that are gonna be no penalty misses. So it's not quite the exact same scoring system. Yeah we're limiting the time you have to to fire it. So it's it's always you always see that on a fixed time stage. You'll hear most of the competitors in a in a squad going, oh, it's just Virginia Count, right? Uh it is as far as number of shots, number of hits, but it's not because we're limiting the time allowed and we're, you know, no penalty misses, etc. etc. So overtime shots and all that. Don't over some yeah, don't oversimplify it.
SPEAKER_00Well, you still have to, you know, you'll still get um extra shots and extra hits.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. If you have time to fire them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well sometimes people take those makeup shots they didn't need on a target, right?
SPEAKER_03Correct.
SPEAKER_00And then they get three hits on the target, and they're like, did I have, you know, it's like, yeah, well, the targets only require two hits and you have three, so and you wasted time, so there.
SPEAKER_01Well might have not been an extra shot, but you certainly gotta get that extra hit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um so yeah, and it's yeah, we used to have a lot more fixed time classifiers. Um it seemed like back in the day there was a lot more of the classifiers were fixed time, and we don't seem to have as many of those anymore. So people just don't see it very often. Um there are plenty of clubs that refuse to run a Virginia Count classifier, they only run Comstock classifiers.
SPEAKER_00So see, they're not solving the problem. The more time if you run them more often, then you get used to them, and it's not a big deal to have those types of stages. Correct. And and realistically, the only time Virginia Count gets ugly is when people freestyle the stage procedure. Yep. If they follow what the stage procedure says, it's easy.
SPEAKER_01Freestyling, and profiling.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02All right.
DNF Classifiers And Classification Impact
SPEAKER_02When a competitor at a match is uh DNF or did not fire at a classifier stage, there's a zero score that is uploaded to USPSA affect their overall classifier scores. And Tori, you actually checked this out and you came up with an answer.
SPEAKER_01Right. So the answer is no. If you DNF, you did not fire, that's that's stage that does not count in your overall classification. And that's directly from our stats uh from our classifier guy, Rick Brocel. So that's the answer. Nope.
SPEAKER_02So there you go. All right, and then let's see, we added a couple of very just before we started recording.
SBR PCC Rules And ATF Changes
SPEAKER_02Um you want to talk about uh SBR changes with the recent ATF changes and paperwork checks and all that.
SPEAKER_01So USPSA, since the inception of PCC division, um has has always allowed short barrel rifles, provided that you have the correct paperwork, et cetera, a tax stamp, whatever was required, um, that it's legal for you to own in the state you own it, et cetera. Uh there's still transport requirements uh with short barrel rifles. There's still some states that require you to do the farm four and and some other paperwork to in order to own it. But generally across the country, the recent ATF rulings or rule changes or interpretations have said that, and it's the result of a court case, but uh that SBRs no longer are require a tax stamp, and they're you know, you can buy one with a with a federal firearms license transfer rather than doing the paperwork. Um there are some states that still require you to do that, but so the question was what do we do about that within USPSA? And the answer is basically nothing, because we've never had anybody required to check your paperwork. That paperwork is up to you and the federal government, right? USPSA doesn't enforce federal law. Our assumption is that if you show up with an SBR PCC, that you have done the correct uh legal things to own that PCC and to transport it outside the state or outside your home area or whatever they do with it. I don't own one, so I don't really know the rules on it. But um according to some of the statements, was you still have to use a form if you're gonna transfer out of, you know, move it out of the state or something like that. So uh but USPSA doesn't enforce federal law. Uh we allow them because our assumption is that that you have done the correct paperwork and it's an honor system, right? Um if you were to get busted by the ATF at a USPSA match, uh USPSA is not liable for that because we say specifically that you have to have the right paperwork, tax stamps, etc. So it has to be legally owned, and then you can shoot it.
SPEAKER_02Well, we don't check that you are legally able to own a handgun to compete in our matches. No. Um go ahead and check your ID. Yeah, I mean it's we uh yeah, you know, it's we just we don't do yeah, that that's just that would get silly. And um, you know, it's we we just assume if you show up with a handgun, you legally own that handgun, and uh it's not stolen or whatever. I mean, I'm sure people have shot matches with stolen handguns. It's just that just yeah, statistics is are gonna they're just too many. Um, but uh they may not know it's stolen. Um but um so you know that's the face though. Yeah, so you know, it's just but yeah, it's and and the thing, same thing apply would apply to shortbrill shotguns in a multi-gun match. If somebody wanted to use a short barrel shotgun in a multi-gun match, same thing. We they're treated the same way. Uh I think there's 12 states that still require other weirdness, um, then the other 38 states are free. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Just a 4473. Um, there still are transportation requirements, but those have been relaxed um somewhat. So I don't own one either. Um, so I haven't really paid a lot of attention to it. Um and all this could change if the admin, you know, if things change, and you know, this was just a ruling by the ATF. That couldn't that's not that's not necessarily a a real change in the law. It's a change in enforcement.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02So it's uh it's a form four that certifies that you form one to make one, form four to transfer it.
SPEAKER_01Form twenty to transfer it. Uh at least that's what I'm looking at.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. No, form twenty is the transport it.
SPEAKER_01Right, transport it. Yeah, transport, that's what I meant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, form four to transfer. Well, it's a form four plus a forty four seventy-three in Washington. It still is in Washington. Yeah. Um, just like suppressors, we still have to do Form 4 um and the 4473 because Washington is special.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But I mean, bottom line is USPSA doesn't enforce federal law, and we don't really care what the ATF had to say about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So anyway. If you got one and you own it legally, lock yourself out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And yeah, and if you're using one as a PCC and you go to Chrono and you don't make minor because you're using mouse fart loads and uh too short of a barrel. Um well.
SPEAKER_00So and also our rules also say for PCCs they have to have a stock, not a brace. Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's still in f in force, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. All right.
Non Member Staff At Level Two
SPEAKER_02And then we get and a question came up in per um our appendices. Um the in order to participate in or shoot a level two or higher match, you have to be a USPSA member. And the question came up: do you have to be a USPSA member to be staff for that match? And we kind of pre-discussed this a little bit. Corey, you want to go over your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's uh Rule 641 requires all competitors to be USPSA members at level two or higher. Um, evidently a couple guys weren't members and shot a section match. Um non-members shoot at level one all the time, and I'm sure that they probably handle a timer and stuff if they feel confident to do it. Uh however, uh I would be I would be loath to have somebody that's a non-member as a range officer on a stage at a level two or higher match, right? Because maybe they got trained and let their membership lapse, but they certainly can't shoot that match, right? Um if they've never been a member, then they were never RO trained. Uh so there is a difference there. The rule book doesn't require every RO on them in the match to be certified, not even in nationals, right? Uh we try to get all certified people, and then some of the people that aren't certified, we put them in support roles and they do a great job at it, right? So you can have non-members uh as staff that are doing support role stuff at your level two or higher match. Um, I just don't think I would put them in as a as a range officer because even if they were previously trained, if they're no longer a member, well, one, they can't shoot the match, and two, um, they don't have any skin in the game, right?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01There's no disciplinary process or anything. If they mess up, if they really do something bad or whatever happens, can't even kick them out. They're not a member, right? So I mean, if you spill all the all the staff snacks out of your golf cart or something, and that's that was your job as a non-member, then you just gotta deal with the mad staff.
SPEAKER_02But um if you those chips are hoys, man.
SPEAKER_01That's I know, right? Disqualify somebody, and and they find out you're not even a member, not ever certified. Sometimes they have a uh a legitimate beef about that, right? Yeah, so I would say if they're gonna be support staff, great. Food delivery, uh quartermaster, you know, Mr. Fixit, whatever. Um, but they shouldn't be doing range officer duties as a non-member.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and I don't, you know, I'm not that familiar with how range insurance policies go and math insurance policies go. If membership plays into insurance coverage or not, I kind of doubt it, but I don't I don't know. I've never dealt with that, so that would be a question for your insurance carrier.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um but uh there are some clubs that that we've done seminars at that had to have trained people to for their insurance.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And they uh from what I understood, they didn't let anybody that wasn't trained actually run a timer or a tablet on a stage, right? So that's pretty strict. I don't think a lot of the insurance stuff worries about that, but it just depends on where the club is and what state they're in, et cetera, I guess.
SPEAKER_02But well, that actually Jody and I are team teaching a seminar in a couple weeks, and the big impetus up there um it is along those lines that they require um that they have two certified ROs in every squad. Um there's there's reasons behind that. We don't have to get into that here, but um, you know, that's and so that's one of the big reasons there's a huge push. That's why we have such a big class, um, is you know, they're they're getting to the point where it's like, well, we've only got we only got eight ROs, so we're only gonna have four squads today. Um and so that's that's you know, that's happening. And the that whole area up there, all the ranges are suffering some pretty bad encroachment issues, and I suspect insurance carriers are clamping down on them, so they've got to do what they've got to do to survive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's yeah, yeah, but and also the more ROs you have, the better your matches are gonna be.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So
Seminar Scheduling Rulebook Timing And Closing
SPEAKER_02all right. Well, that's all I have on the list. Um I don't know if anything else we wanna go over.
SPEAKER_03I think I'm good.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. I think we're over a hundred seminars by the time the year is over. Um, we'll be over a hundred seminars. Um and we've already we're in the 20-ish range already for 2027. So if you're if you're thinking about having a seminar or two, um you know, I uh just was down in uh Cal in North in uh Sacramento area at uh at a club teaching at Salinotaragus Masters teaching a uh CRO seminar, and um they're planning on having some seminar more seminars next year. And I said, get on the calendar. Um and that's you know, the calendar is is gonna fill with four nationals this year instead of two. Uh, well, actually, four plus two, so six, if you had multigun world speed shoot, um, instead of four, you know, extra we have just have extra nationals this next year, that takes out more weekends, that affects some instructor availability. So, you know, that's get them on, um, get them in there. And for your level one seminars, if if you want to schedule them on your match weekend, um, you know, talk to us about that. We, you know, the the seminar Jody and I are doing, we're doing the um range exercise for the ROs as part of the match. We're taking several squads out of their match, filling them with ROs, and the ROs will do their range exercise on a real stage um at a real match. Um, and they get to shoot the whole match for you know as part of the class. So um we don't shy away from that. If we as long as we can make it work, um if you're and if you're wanting to do that, reach out to us and we can walk you through it. Um it's just a logistical thing for the most part. It's not really a big deal. Um so if that helps you get a weekend, if you're at a very busy range and USPSA only has one weekend and you don't want to give up your whole weekend um just so you can have a class, talk to us and we'll work, we'll work with you and and and get a class in there for you. So um and don't forget we also have Steel Challenge. If you're primarily a Steel Challenge Club, we do a Steel Challenge range officer seminar. That's uh it's a one-day seminar. Um, and so we'll be happy to come and do that for you. I've got one of those lined up um up at fair in the Fairbanks area and uh for next next uh next summer already. So yeah, it's we're we're happy to do any and all. Um so get those you'll get those seminars on the calendar and you can start working on getting them getting them filled. Uh we we do find clubs that will, oh, we're gonna have a seminar and they'll get it on the calendar two, three weeks in advance, and then they're trying desperately trying to get bodies into it um because they just didn't leave themselves enough runway. So um, you know, that's get it out, get in, get them on the calendar, and work on getting them filled up. So and there will be a new rulebook coming. Um, I don't know if we know exactly when that's gonna be. I think the plan is February 1, right?
SPEAKER_01That's what we're shooting for. Um, it's gonna depend on rules committee timing, uh, board approval of whatever. And you know, it's sort of out of our hands right now. Uh out of NRI hands. Uh we're gonna try to get it out as as soon as possible, but uh I couldn't tell you what might hold it up.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think February one primarily because uh isn't that when some of the provisional divisions and stuff correct? Yeah uh they go into affect February one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or the provisional going to full or whatever we're they're doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and for you steel challenge folks, if you didn't hear the news, there's two new provisional steel challenge stages. Um I looked at them the other day and I sat there and pondered for a little while how I would shoot them.
SPEAKER_00Well, they're in ace, so you can see.
SPEAKER_02Are they in ace? I was gonna go look. I haven't had a chance.
SPEAKER_00So I'm they have all the provisional ones in there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Now I am gonna go shoot them in ace. Um and uh see which way works better for me. Um, so yeah. So new steel challenge stages, we've got new classifiers. Um, I think those are no longer present. Those are for real.
SPEAKER_00Those got those got a pre those are about the real world now.
SPEAKER_02So, and there'll probably be more coming. So yeah, exciting times to be part of part of the of our sports. Um, so anyhow, if neither of you have anything else. Hearing nothing. All right, don't forget if you have questions, comments, whatever rules at uspsa.org, and we'll be happy to take your question and get get answers back to you or whatever. Um, and with that, thank you everyone, and we'll see you in two weeks. Good night.
SPEAKER_03Good night.
SPEAKER_02Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NROI seminars under the NRY tab at USBSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRI tab at USBSA.org.