NROI Podcast
Want to know more about the USPSA and SCSA Rules? Need to keep up on the rules changes? The NROI Podcast is the place to get the rules, from the source. Join us for discussions on the rules, history of the sport, and other topics.May contain infrequent use of mild profanity.
NROI Podcast
110. NROI Podcast October 2026 #2
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We dive back into the mailbag for this episode including discussion regarding safety on in the holster, 1.1.5.5 (again), movement along walls with finger in the trigger guard, allowable tolerances when setting up classifiers, and much more.
Note: Transcriptions done by AI or other means may not be entirely accurate. This podcast, and any transcription thereof, does not constitute an official NROI ruling. Questions should be sent to rules@uspsa.org.
Welcome
SPEAKER_05This is the NROI podcast, your source for factual information for USPSA and STSA competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Officers Institute, United States Practical Shooting Association, and Steel Challenge Shooting Association. All rolebooks can be found at USPSA.org slash rules, STSA.org slash rules, and on the USPSA and STSA apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Rules discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings that are published as per the bylaws United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules should be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 110, recorded late October 2026. Well, hello everyone. Kevin Emmel here with the NRY podcast. Joining me as usual are Jody Human. Good evening, Jody.
SPEAKER_02Good evening.
SPEAKER_05And Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy.
SPEAKER_01Good evening.
SPEAKER_05You finally got the body back on United States time.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_05So all right. Any announcements from either of you that we need to anything we need to go over?
SPEAKER_01Um, I don't think so. I don't really have anything.
LMS Update And Class Scheduling
SPEAKER_01Announceable.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's been announceable. It's been it's been pretty quiet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we had our first classes on the new LMS, the version of the LMS, a couple weeks ago, and uh found a slight bug about final exam access, but that got fixed. So overall, I think the students have been happy. So um if your class, you know, there's gonna be some classes that are still on the old system, newer classes are gonna be all in the new system. So um it just depends when your class got scheduled. But it seems to be working well.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, I the class I've got this weekend was scheduled way last spring, so it's still on the old one. Yep. But the one I have in mid-November just got scheduled, so it should be that will be my first class in the new system.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05And uh yeah, we've still got nine classes left to teach in 2026 on the books. And we have about a dozen already scheduled in 27, so um it's it's it's moving along. Um, and and there's um so that's good. And I don't know what our final count for this year is, but it's well over a hundred. Um so hopefully someday hopefully we can get the dashboard fixed where we actually have an accurate number. Um because the number it gives us is not accurate. But anyway,
Rangemaster Program Expectations
SPEAKER_05um, all right. Well, it is time to start announcing that here in a few days, the applications for the Rangemaster program will open on November 1st. Those are open through December 31st. And um, you know, we probably should talk a little bit about you know eligibility and what we're looking for in RMs. Um, basically, if you just want the piece of paper so you can say you're a Rangemaster, save your time, save your money. Um, you won't do well in the program. Um, and it's just it's not gonna work out for you. So um that's just a word to the wise. This is not just get a piece of paper to hang on the wall and get a title type program. You're gonna have to work for it. Um, you do have to go as part of the program, you do have to go work matches. Um, as an assistant RM, that's a requirement. Um, you can't always just hope you we can slot you in at nationals, you're gonna have to do some work on your own.
SPEAKER_00Well, we'd like them to get some on-job training before nationals, right?
SPEAKER_05Exactly. And um, you know, so yeah, it's you are going to have to be a self-starter, you're gonna have to be self-motivated. The instructor is not going to give you a schedule that says by February 1st, you'll do this, by March 1st, you do that. That isn't how it runs. Um, you have to be that's not what we're looking for in RM either, is somebody that needs something like that. We need self-starters, we need people that are that drive themselves. And the students that we have had over the years that have been very on top of it, been self-starters, really dug in and and did the work, have been the people that have been the most successful and um are out there being very active RMs today. The people that kind of just you know waited for the instructor to email them, go, hey, I haven't seen any heard anything out of you in a bit. Are you still wanting to continue in the program? And then they do a little bit of work. Um, those people oftentimes don't finish. And we're seeing more and more uh students that get into the program that don't finish because it doesn't end up not being what they thought it what they thought it was going to be, which largely is. I just thought this was going to be like the CRO program where I do a little bit of work and I get I get the title. And that isn't this is that is not what this program is about. Um you do have to be a CRO for two years, and that is as of you know, so if you if you got past your CRO in March of this year, for instance, and we just had a question from somebody, and that was what his date was, so I'll just use that. Um he's not eligible to enter the program until um November, December of uh 28. So, and then it the his program would officially start in January of 29. So you you have to have that two year and and we're looking for in that two years as a CRO, we want to see you working majors. We want to see how to work you're working your level twos and level threes, your areas, nationals. We want to see your work record. We're gonna look at your work record um on the website. Um, if you didn't know that as part of your profile when you're a range officer, there is a a work record that you can go fill out when you go work a big match, not your locals, but when you go work a level two or higher match, you put that in your work record. We're gonna go look at that work record and uh we're gonna ask you for some references, and we are actually gonna talk to those references. And um, you know, so and do yourself a favor, tell them you're make sure that they're gonna give you a good a good reference. Um, we've had a couple people not make it into the program because they just listed three people thinking it was just a BS requirement. And when we called them one time, the one of them was like, Who? Right, it didn't even know who we were talking about.
SPEAKER_01So um, you know, you also can't use an instructor as your reference.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah, none of the instructors can be your reference. So um, but yeah, if you have questions about the program, uh feel free to reach out to us at rules at usbsa.org. Or if you know one of the instructors, um, you know, if you took classes from an instructor or whatever, you know, feel free to reach out and ask them questions. They'll be happy to talk to you about the program. But um, you know, you can always ask at rules at uspsa.org. Um, there's a lot of information out on the website. Um, when the application goes online, there's a bunch of uh information out there. So be sure you read through all of that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um the information's there without the the button to apply. So they can find it already. Um but I highly recommend that if you want to be an RM, yeah, you gotta like from what Kevin said, we want people who want to do the job of being an RM. Um you need to realize how, you know, we make it look easy, but it really isn't an easy job. No. Uh the reason you have to be a self-starter is because there'll be times you're working with a match director who's maybe new or inexperienced, and you sometimes have to lead them, point them in the right direction, get them to do things right. Uh, you can't be everyone's friend as RM. You gotta be willing to be the leader and hurt feelings. I mean, not hurt feelings where they agree to quit the sport, but it's be like, no, this stage isn't legal. I can't approve it for the match. Yeah. Or no, we need to do this because otherwise our your squad matrix is totally crazy and we're never gonna stay on time. Um so you know, the RM job is just not sitting on the golf court looking pretty. You do most of your work pre-match.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_00You you have to you can't be everyone's friend. Um, and so if you aren't prepared to make the hard decisions and deal with the upset people, the RM program is not for you.
SPEAKER_05Well, and you need to be assertive too, because sometimes you'll be working with a match director and they may not be intentionally leaving you out of the process. And it's it's it's actually a really bad idea for a match director to leave the RM out of the process because you know it will eventually come back and bite them. Um, like when they submit the stages and we reach out to the RM on the forum C and go, Hey, have you looked at these skate stages? Because we see a bunch of problems, and they go, Stages, I haven't seen stages. Yeah, that is good.
SPEAKER_01So um that's one of the things, yeah. One of the things we added to the to the new form C is uh Rangemaster's information as well. Yeah, so you can email whoever's reviewing stages can email both the mass director and the range master at the same time. And I have gotten that response because I've some of the older formcs when they updated the the thing, that information was blank, right?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Because it just wasn't there when they entered their form C initially. So I added the Race Master information, and then when I emailed them both and said, Hey, this stage isn't legal, I got back from the RM, right? Uh, what stage? You know, I I was seeing those like, oh okay. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you're just gonna have to be insertive and keep yourself inserted in the process. Um, and you know, like Jody said, some of these people, this is you know, they got to be the match director because the club said, Yeah, we're doing this match, and you're oh by the way, you're the match director. Um, and you know, they may not may or may not have the experience. So, you know, Rangermaster typically is gonna have more uh experience and certainly more resources to draw on. Um, we're in the process of building something for match directors, it's not ready to announce yet, but we're we've got something in in the works in all of our spare time. And uh so you know that's but yeah, you're if you're if you are the shrinking violet type personality that stands in the corner and hopes not to be seen, RM program is not for you. Um it just isn't gonna work. So anyway, now that we've tried to discourage you from being an RM, um I mean being an RM is one of the best ways, in my opinion, one of the best ways to get back to the sport. Um because you're you're ensuring the quality of these of matches, and it's not just the level two and level three matches, and and it's also helping ensure the quality of your local matches or the local matches in your section. You become a resource for others to draw on that's local, uh, more local to them. So it is it is a very impactful position. That's why we put all the restrictions on that position that we do. Um, it's because it is such a potentially impactful position. And you know, if if we hear that you've that you're making weird statements or calls, we're gonna call you on it. Um and which I guess we should mention, we're also gonna look at your social media profile. Right. And um, so if you're one of those people that's out there, oh, I want to be a range master, and then the last your last 20 posts on Facebook were trashing USPSA, yeah, you're probably not gonna make the program.
SPEAKER_01Not just USPSA, trashing oh, any any any shooting sport, any any body in the shooting sports, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a uh Rangemaster is uh I mean, I like to think of it as a leadership position.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_01So you're taking taking leadership at your local club, at your you know, level two matches, and we're trying to encourage all matches that are level two and up, and and level ones as well, to actually have uh but level twos and up to have a certified Rage Master at the match, right? Yeah, not just your buddy John that oh, he always does a good job and he's a nice guy. Well, okay, but that doesn't mean that he's got the training or the experience, etc. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, not that people like that can't do the uh a good job as an RM. It depends on the match, I guess, and and who they're working with, but it's always better to have a certified range master, and then certainly for a level three match, you have to be certified, so right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and we have what 57 rangemasters, certified range masters now. So um, I think that was the number I saw. Um close to that, yeah. And you know, so this it isn't the days when I got in the range master program. I think I was active RM like number 13. Um, you know, there had been lots that had gone before me, but there weren't a whole lot that were still active. And you know, that's and for years we hung around in the 20s. And um now we've as the sport has grown, um the RO core has grown, we've seen an increase in the number of range masters. So um it's yeah, and yeah, he's a nice guy and he does a good job, is almost mutually exclusive.
SPEAKER_01Um in some cases, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, not quite. I mean, I'm I like to think I'm a nice guy, and I also like to think I do a good job. So but that there's a lot of experience and a lot, you know, I've been an RM for almost 20 years. Um, yeah, it'll be 20 years next June. Um so and um plus I've been in management for 30 years, um, so I know how to deal with people, and that's that helps. So um, yeah, life skills do count here.
Match Design Lessons From Wall Hits
SPEAKER_01So I think one of the most frequent discussions rather than argument, I guess I've had with master actors is uh targets beyond the 180, right? And you tell them you gotta fix that. Well, no, if they if they shoot at that, they're gonna get disqualified. You know, they ought to there ought to be some common sense, there ought to be some risk involved. And I was like, nope, nope, nope, rule books has this, so we're gonna fix it, you know. And so yeah, that discussion has not been always the most pleasant, but it usually got fixed, right? Because I mean I I get it. If yeah, if you shoot a target, you know, turn and shoot a target with your muzzle past the 180, sure, it's a DQ, but we're the rule is specific about that, so we're not setting competitors up to do that.
SPEAKER_05But well, more importantly, where did that bullet go?
SPEAKER_01Well, true.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, it's like if it's right on the 180, fix it because it's kind of like a trap. Yeah, we don't want to trap our competitors, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of like like shooting walls, right? I mean we had we had a ton of wall hits at at Nationals, they put sacrificial wood all over, but you know, the simplest thing, in fact, I had a question. I don't think I've answered that rules question yet. I answered it about charging people for shooting their the wall. Yeah, I answered that one. Okay. I hope that was a hard no.
SPEAKER_05Um well, it's a you know, you won't have much many walls shot because pretty quickly nobody's gonna come to your match.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh the I mean, bottom line on that is if you put it down range, it's probably gonna get shot. Yeah, oh yeah, uh, at some point, and it depends on, but a lot of that depends on target placement. So why would you put your target so close to the wall that it encourages people to shoot the wall, right? And if you're gonna if you want to do that, put some hardcover on it. Hardcover, shoot, yeah, it pushes them off the wall. And I mean, it's just it's it's a target placement thing. It's not necessarily, oh, we're gonna put a stick on every wall so we can replace it when it gets shot.
SPEAKER_00Why don't you want to get shot? Wall hits just slow down scoring.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Because R's gotta be like, well, I gotta go see where this wall hit went. Is it full down or is it partial? Yeah, so it's like just set up better. Put a little hardcover on the side of your target downrange that where the wall is, put a no shoot on that side. Yeah, you know, we're not saying you put no shoots on the walls. I hate walls, no shoots on walls. I don't, but if you use the right target downrange, you can minimize people shooting up your wall because they're gonna stay away from it like the plague.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. You know, at Factory Gun, I got out my overlays and used them once. I had several scoring calls, and every single one of them was a wall hit. Right. You know, it's yeah, you know, well, is it a full diameter, is a partial diameter, dah dah dah dah, da. Uh, you know, it's it it really slows your match down a lot. So, you know, if you're gonna do that, okay, but um, you know, and for a local match, it probably doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00But you get we still don't want your walls shut up.
SPEAKER_05No, no, but no, in terms of slowing your match down. Oh, yeah, you know, it's still it probably doesn't matter, but it's gonna, you know, hey guys, we can't have a match unless we have a we need to have a wall fixing party so we can have a match next month, right? And then nobody shows up, you know. That's that's the other part of that. And no steel tubing for your walls doesn't solve that problem, it just makes it harder to fix.
SPEAKER_00It leaves nice sharp edges when a bullet goes through.
SPEAKER_05Oddly enough, bullets go right through that thin wall, one-inch steel tubing.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. So I've got a I've got a good tale about that. The the second Nashals I ever worked. I think it was the second. Um, we had this they that was it was at Pasta, and they had wooden walls, right? The solid wood, plywood walls, and it was probably, I don't know, 24 feet of wall and a target right at the end of the wall. And a guy that was the current area director for area five, I think, uh shot and he grazed the wall, right? It it put a little groove in the wall, and then it and then it kind of slewed off of there and hit the target. So it was scorable, right? So there was a uh a woman in the squad that shot the end of the wall and blew a chunk of two by four into the target. It was a big, a big wooden splinter, right? And so we're like, yeah, that's just a piece of wood, that doesn't count. And man, she lost it. She was jumping up and down, screaming and hollering. It was a shitty, shitty stage, and we were terrible ROs and all this stuff. She actually got uh John Amadon involved, and he came strolling over, and I was like, Oh, are you here about the stick in the wood? He goes, Yeah, so I had the target and the piece of wood, and he just looked at it, he goes, Yeah, okay. So he walked off, but man, she was hot. And I said, You know, man, my this is this is a splinter. It's yeah, I'm sure it would hurt if it's stuck in you, but it ain't a bullet hole, right? And uh we don't score splinters, yeah. So that was that was uh the epitome of wall hits, in my in my opinion, of it because man, they blew a chunk into that thing. And um that's we don't see that much because you know, two by twos and all that stuff now, mesh walls, but yeah, yeah. If bottom line, if you're gonna put it down range, it'll probably get shot, and you can't you can't charge people a fee for shooting your wall. I mean, that's part of the match fee, that's part of your maintenance on your stuff. It's kind of crazy to to do that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, even I mean, I I suppose if you wanted to do a yeah, you throw a buck, you if you hit the wall, you throw a buck in the in the jar and we use it to buy pizza after the match or something.
SPEAKER_01I mean, but yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, like dollars for deltas, yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's yeah, it's yeah, yeah. Or you know, the swear jar at work, or right, yeah, you know, things like that. But if you're gonna go, let's see, and John had four wall hits, so you Was 20 bucks.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05Guess what? Here's your 20 bucks. I'm never coming back.
SPEAKER_01Right. So. Or what's the penalty for not playing? For not paying. They're gonna get sent in a collection or something.
SPEAKER_05Oh, and we're not gonna let you shoot our match again. Well, guess what? You're gonna turn me for a wall.
SPEAKER_00Well won't let you register until you pay your back wall fee again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you're not getting your back wall fee, and you're not getting a match fee from me either, because I'm not coming back.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, pretty quickly you're not a club.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So, I mean, that's just that's just you know, it's just I was I remember I taught a class, and I remember was somewhere in the Midwest. I don't remember where it was now. And you know, the guy was driving around the range and showing me, and I looked in and one of these bays had a whole bunch of you know, like 20 feet of steel culvert, you know, corrugated galvanized steel culvert.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_05I said, What the heck is that for? And he says, Oh, we use that on stages. And I said, What? Yeah, you know, instead of a you know, a wood tunnel, we use a steel tunnel, and it had little, you know, had some holes cut in the sides of it so you could shoot it out of it. And I'm like, You get a lot of people showing up at your matches, and he goes, Well, oddly enough, it's our match participation has really dropped. Said it probably correlated to doing things like that, but it's done, it's supposed to be fun. That isn't fun, you know. You're a young person, you have a good back and good knees. Um, you know, that and I mean it was a good diameter. I mean, it was probably three, four feet in diameter. So, but it's still, you know, most like people like me are gonna have to crawl through it. And guess what? I'm not going to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I'm maybe get the RM because I need a special penalty. Um so you know, you you've gotta you've gotta think about you know what you're doing with your matches. There there have been in the past, and there will, I'm sure, be again hard as hell matches, you know, they advertise them as that. If you advertise a match as the hard as hell match, your customer that's showing up is expecting unusual things.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_05Um, you know, but if you're just thinking you're signing up for your typical garden variety USPSA match and you get there and you've got to do all sorts of crazy weird stuff that hurts. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01For people that think that you know, handgun or PCC bullet holes in a wall is is something. Um I've I've witnessed several wall hits at the shotgun world shoot. And that is not good for a wall at all.
SPEAKER_05No, and there's no doubt whether they got it or not. Yeah. So anyway, especially the slug hit. Yeah, wall did not will not survive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, especially if it's the wall's pretty close to where the slug leaves the barrel and has a lot of energy.
Fees Time Commitment And Life Planning
SPEAKER_05Yep. So all right, anyway. So again, RM applications open November 1st, and they're open until through the 31st. There is a $100 application fee. December, December 31st. Oh, December 31st. I'm sorry. Uh so November 1st through December 31st, there is a $100 application fee for applying. Um, that's just your first indication that this is serious.
SPEAKER_00And and if you don't get accepted, we refund the fee. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So plus we're gonna we're gonna update the information on that prior to the first. So there'll be something for any applicant to read that sort of reiterates what Kevin said and puts some emphasis on the self-starting part of it and the you know, experience part, and yeah, reiterates the social media thing and everything. So we're gonna kind of kind of beef that information up because, like you mentioned, you know, sometimes we get people in that program. I've had emails from a couple of people that said, I'm definitely applying for RM. And I'm thinking to myself, I haven't seen you at many matches. I don't know, or USPSA matches, right?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01I don't know why you would want to do that when you don't really have the the you know organizational experience. You've been working other stuff. So I don't know. It's not for certificate collectors, and it's not an easy thing to do, right? You gotta put some work into it, you have to have the time to do it, you have to plan uh you have to think about your life events that might be coming up, right? So if you're gonna have a baby, I would recommend not applying to the RM program.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. If you're getting jobs, if you're gonna get married that year, yeah, yeah. Think I mean, hiraming, but I mean, he he got it done, he got both of them done. Um, but uh yeah, the wedding planning definitely took precedence over the RM program every once in a while. But yeah, you know, and it's which is totally understandable. Um and uh, you know, that's but he you know, he made it, he did a great, he did a really good job. Um but yeah, you know, we've had RMs that get into the program and they think, well, yeah, you know, it's the baby's coming, but that's the wife's job.
SPEAKER_03Uh, dumb god.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. So uh yeah. Um, and they basically, I mean, they think every single one we've had that happen a couple of times, and I think every single one of them has ended up dropping out. So um they just don't have the time anymore. But I mean, there's a there is a commitment, you need to be out there working, and um, you know, just completing the course is a pretty serious time commitment. When I got into the program, I got my materials. This is when it was all done mostly by mail with a little bit of email. I got my materials in December, and I basically committed that I was spending every Saturday working on the program until I was done. And um, once I was done with modules, then I was waiting for Jay to get you know stuff graded and back to me so I could make any needed necessary changes or corrections um and kick those back around. And I was and I was done mid-March. And then it was a matter of sitting around waiting for a national so I could test out. So it can be done, you just have to apply yourself. We also didn't have a mandatory work requirement back when I did it, so um, but that wouldn't have been a problem because I worked area one that year, so um, that wouldn't have been a problem at all. But anyway, so there you go. All right, let's move on.
NFA Braces And PCC Equipment Questions
SPEAKER_05Um we've had some rather astounding events occur um with regard to the National Firearms Act.
SPEAKER_00Uh and um well, for those living in free states, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, you know, it's affected us too. Um I got the fastest return on a Forum 4 I've ever seen in my life, um, right as this all was passing. Um, and that was unbelievably quick. Um but uh yeah, that's anyway. Um the whole SBR SBS uh thing, suppressors we don't do a lot with in our sport except multi-gun. Um, so but you know, the short barrel rifle certainly does pop up in our sport and or tries to pop up in our sport. And so, you know, just we're waiting kind of for the dust to settle on the NFA. Um, but there's also been changes, you know, with braces and things like that of recent. And you know, we keep getting people writing in going, hey, I've got an AR9 uh type platform. Can I just put a brace on it and call it a PCC? No. Because braces are still braces still aren't legal, even if it's a brace that looks kind of like a butt stock. No, it's a brace.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, flip side of that is if if you have the right buffer tube, you could always put a stock on it and then deal with the SPR thing, you know, under the NFA rules, that that doesn't really affect us. We're just concerned that you have a stock on it and it's it's being treated like a rifle.
SPEAKER_05Correct.
SPEAKER_01And ATF rules and and interpretations and whatever they do from day to day has no real bearing on USPSA competition, right? So that doesn't drive our division equipment rules. Now it may it may make things easier to get and you know uh better for people to compete with, like short barrel rifles, etc. And the same thing with uh multi-gun. If the I'm pretty sure it's gonna pass, but the proposal to allow suppressors and multi-gun on the on the rifles and stuff, uh, that'll make it easier for people to do it. But there was no consideration given of the ATF requirements for that.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's you know, I've I have spent a year waiting for a form of four to clear to have one clear in four days astonished me, even living in a non-free state. So um yeah, so um anywho, um so there we go.
Aftermarket Triggers What Is Allowed
SPEAKER_05And we keep getting questions about various incendy trick replacement triggers and what is legal and what isn't legal. Um there's I know Timney's now got a newer trigger. I don't know that it's new, new. No, it's been out for a while. But I mean, I think you said you had one, Jody.
SPEAKER_00I have well, I just brought the replacement shoe to put on one of my Timmy triggers, but I can't get the other trigger off. So I gotta contact them because I think they intended for you to put it on a normal Glock trigger, which uh I I might do too. But anyway, basically they sell their Glock trigger with two shoe options. They have one where it looks just like the you know standard Glock trigger with a little dingus in the middle of it. I know that's not the technical name, but that's what I call it. And then they have this alternate one where the bottom of the trig of the trigger is hinged, kind of like the original MP trigger. Um, and also I think the uh trigger tech ace is like that now, too. Um, so we I mean I got one, I was gonna play with it, but seeing how it is built, yeah. Um it's fine to use that one if you like that. I mean, MMP went away from the trigger shoe. I don't know why.
SPEAKER_05Because it makes for a really sucky trigger pull.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's probably why then. But you know, some people maybe like it. I mean, I just I just bought it, I just bought the replacement shoe to play with it, yeah, and then it found out that it was gonna be too hard to change out. So I'm like, well, I like the standard shoes anyway. So yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I just learned to shoot it, so I have a number of MPs and um I just just learned to deal with it, but then I like revolvers, so shitty trigger poles are my life.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, you you there's something wrong with you.
SPEAKER_05Long sucky trigger trigger poles. Um, all right, moving on. Let's see.
Classifier Setup Tolerances And Reporting
SPEAKER_05At my club, we ran a match yesterday that included uh classifier 2502. The diagram was misread during setup, so the T2 was placed about a foot to the right of where it should have been. So the classifier needs to be thrown out, right? The setup made the stage more difficult than design. Shooters needed to be all the way in the corner of the shooting area to get a full view of T2 since the setup mistake made it more difficult. Is there any chance that we can ask our shooters if they want their score reported or not? And Troy, I think you did this one, right?
SPEAKER_01So that classifier is not valid. Um and the the follow-up question they sent me was well, how much can you be off? And I said, Well, you could probably be off an inch, maybe two, right? And target placement on the ground as far as your measurements. And that's kind of a you know, that's kind of a a wobble in the setup. But if you're a foot off and and it does what you did, then that's yeah, that's no good, right? Because that it does change the presentation of the targets. It's not the same classifier as everybody else that set up 2502 and did it correctly, shot. So the other thing you've got to consider is uh, you know, we provided measurements for where the no-shoot goes or where hardcover is, etc. And you have to get that right too. Because even though your targets are all in the right place, if that no shoot is too high or too low, then that's a completely different target as well.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So that's that was the second classifier question I think we got last week. Yeah. And then they they want to know could they still use it and let people uh, you know, what what what should they do with it? This was the first one I got. And I said, well, you gotta toss it. You can use it as a stage. I mean, it doesn't have to be removed, but it can't be turned in as a classifier.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you gotta go take the classifier code out of the yeah, the stage setup.
SPEAKER_05You know, same goes for you don't have the right hardcover targets if you're using pre-printed hardcover and you don't you're out of whatever that you need, pick a different classifier.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, don't sub out a right vertical for a right diagonal.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, or what you know, or be old school and paint your own. I mean, yeah, it's not hard.
SPEAKER_01What? Yeah, make make make six of them for your club for your clubmates.
SPEAKER_05But having this press this button on the spray can't is gonna screw up my trigger finger, and I won't, yeah. No.
SPEAKER_00Well, see, that's why you get the little handles that go on the spray can, so it's like the same trigger pull.
SPEAKER_05Oh, there you go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, really.
SPEAKER_01Maybe you could get a pivoting trigger.
SPEAKER_05So it's like a revolver trigger, it's a long sucky pull.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. But you're you're working the muscles.
SPEAKER_05I mean, yeah, it's all good. Yeah, that must be why I like those handgun, those uh paint can handles.
SPEAKER_00I just like them because they're so much easier.
SPEAKER_05Well, yeah. All right, uh, moving
Cocked Hammers Magazines And Safe Areas
SPEAKER_05on. Is it a rules violation in Steel Challenge or USPSA to walk around with a holstered gun with the hammer cocked back? I know the range command is hammered down holster, but assume the competitor cocked the hammer at some point after leaving the box uh or the stage, like at the safety table. What about a non-empty magazine? Well, even if the magazine is unloaded, and we go over straight to jail. Yeah, we go over to this in a level one seminar. Um there was a period of time where people thought it was funny to walk up behind you and cock the hammer in your handgun. Um, and then they would go, Oh, he's got a cocked handgun. Oh, you know, just trying to screw with people. Um, thankfully, I think we've mostly gotten past that, but it does happen. And it's it's it's you know, an RO needs to take you to a safe place. Um, and they need to determine if that gun is loaded or not. If it's not loaded, it's just a cocked hammer, hammer down holster, um, and go on about your day. If it's loaded, you're done. Um, and then same with same with the magazine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, same with the empty magazine well, not empty magazine wind well, uh, even if the magazine is unloaded, as long as the gun does not meet the definition of a loaded gun, which means having a magazine inserted that had contains ammo or having something in the chamber, you're fine.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00Um, when I worked my first nationals, which was also the nationals I tested out for the RM program, don't recommend doing that. Um I thought I was gonna have to DQ someone before the match even started. Because they, you know, shooters were showing up, uh, coming to our stage, and we were checking off and getting their names so we knew who they were, right? Uh, this was back when we had paper score sheets, so we had to get their sticker so we could put it on their score sheet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, so they had to do that before they walked the stage. And so a guy came, gave us a sticker, he walked the stage. And as he was walking off the stage, I was like looking at his gun, going, he's got a magazine inserted. So I went and was like, hey, uh, can I have you go to the safety area with me? And he looked at me and like, because you got a mag in your gun. He's like, oh, oh, oh. So we went over there and he'd been at the practical function fire bay, and I guess didn't think about leaving his gun to look taking the mag out of his gun. And so it turns out he was unloaded, but I was kind of like very glad I didn't have to call the RM and be like, I already DQ'd someone.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I see people doing that when it's dusty too. When it's windy and dusty, they'll put a mag in. We thought that in Vegas all the time. Steal a shower cap from the hotel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love when the hotels provide me with gun covers.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right. I've I've noticed the past couple dusty matches I've been at, there haven't been shower caps.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, they spec out or what? But well, a lot of the hotels don't do it anymore. But I did learn at Walmart you can buy a whole bag of them. So you know, bring them to the range and sell them for a buck, right? Profit.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there you go. Yeah, my my favorite one was the guy that had a the large-size Snickers bar shoved in his magwell yeah in Vegas. And I'm like, why to keep the dust out? No, it's not a magazine. It was wrapped, yeah, it was wrapped.
SPEAKER_00I'm hoping it was wrapped. Yeah, I was gonna say it might melt depending on what temperatures in Vegas.
SPEAKER_05And he had another one in a mag pouch on his belt, and I'm going, brother, if you draw that out and load it as hot as it is, you're never getting it out of the gun.
unknownOh yeah.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, no, we made him take it out.
SPEAKER_00Well, then at some winter matches, I've seen people ask, what if I keep can I keep hand warmers in my magazine while no. I'm like, no. So that's what I I need to do it. I need to crochet up a little, you know, uh that holds holds your hand warmers around your metal framed grip.
SPEAKER_05Well, but here's the thing about out here, it's so it's so dry. If there's no moisture in the air, those hand warmers won't work if they're not getting the moisture out of where you're just gonna do it for a joke and give it to the competitors who were worried about it.
SPEAKER_01I have seen people stick a hand warmer in the magwell though, and then seed a mag or try to with it still in there. Yeah, that's a mess. They bust it open, chocolate and spice all over the place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a mess. That's not good for those that open in limited 2011s.
SPEAKER_05No, 2011s don't like that much crap in the magwell.
SPEAKER_00No, they don't like the the lacking compound.
SPEAKER_05Nope. All right.
Mesh Walls Engagement And Trigger Finger
SPEAKER_05Uh, next question. I have a question as it relates to movement and walls. We get this question so often, but hey, we'll do it again. Um, with a lot of walls being constructed with snow fence, there have been a lot of people around some clubs that are divided on a question. Gee, I wonder what that might be. If you can see the target through the wall and are starting to pre-aim at the target andor are pointing at the target while moving to the open area to engage, are you allowed to have your finger in the trigger guard? I am thinking that you can't because you can't engage a target through the wall. But others argue that if you can see the target through the wall, you are actively tracking the target. I didn't find anything immediately calling it out, but wanted to try and help settle the dispute.
SPEAKER_00Well, this is one of the suggested rule changes we have to the rules committee, but um this is one the instructors have argued about for years. I agree. If that target is not legally, you can't legally engage that target through the wall.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_00You can have the gun up, but your finger should be outside the trigger guard. Now, if you're moving and you're coming up to a gap, yeah, you're probably gonna get your finger in the trigger guard as you're taking your last step or almost last step. That I don't have a problem with. But to me, people who are just using the see-through walls as a crutch to not have good uh finger discipline in regards to the trigger, it's just lazy. But I also come up with came up in the sport when all at clubs that had solid walls, so yeah, maybe I just was trained better. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, they're they're supposed to represent a solid plane, and I mean it's just like we deem them to go up to the sky and down to the ground when they really don't, right? Right. But just because you can see through it doesn't mean that you can aim through it. Because if you look up the definition of engage, and I think that's the the key word here is yeah, it's at least what two of the three people that disqualified for that erase gun um tried to say was I was engaging that target. Well. The definition of engage says that you can actually legally see it and shoot at it. You can't shoot it through the wall, right? Yeah. So you got to have your finger outside the trigger guard while you're moving, taking more than two steps, you know, all that stuff. But you can't really argue that you're engaging a target when you shoot a hole in a banner. Yeah. Right? Because you couldn't see through that banner. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00Maybe the dude had x-ray vision, Troy.
SPEAKER_01Maybe.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it's it's gonna be an argument all the time because if oh, I can see it, I can you know aim at it. And like you said, you can certainly aim at it. You just gotta keep your finger outside the trigger guard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So indexed on it, do all you want, and then when you can actually shoot it, then stick your finger in there and pull the trigger, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the definition of engaging as an engaging a target, a competitor is actively aiming at and firing at least one shot at a target that is within view, not through walls or other barriers, obstacles, except soft cover.
SPEAKER_01Right. The second part of that argument is well, I can what if I shoot a wall downrange? Well, and this was from one of the guys that disqualified for doing it. Um, the wall that he was running along, not the not a wall downrange. I was like, well, that's you know, it goes back to our shooting the walls thing. I mean, that's down there. You just your aim was poor, you took a step, whatever made you hit that wall. It's not the same as running along a wall where you can't legally engage a target and shooting a hole in the wall, right? Yeah, right. The two it's it's apples and oranges, but it took a little while. I don't think he ever understood that argument, but anyway. Oh well. Yeah, so you can accidentally shoot a wall downrange. Uh, you could shoot the edge of a port if you're trying to shoot a target and you're coming up really close, right?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you can't just traverse a wall with your finger on a trigger, and then when the if the gun goes off, it claim that you were trying to shoot at that target, you know, that you were engaging that target.
SPEAKER_05Right. You're gonna go home.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's the that's the issue with that is you know, there's a lot of people that that say that, you know, finger on a trigger, we shouldn't even worry about it because it's a self-fulfilling thing. But you don't want that round leaving, you don't want that round, you can't ever get it back, you don't know where it went.
SPEAKER_00Well, not to mention Jeff Cooper will be rolling his grave because the sport was founded on the four basic rules of gun safety.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, correct.
SPEAKER_00So believe one of those says keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
SPEAKER_01Right. But I don't know. I mean, I I don't get the way some people think about that. That's it's not a toy. Um we had another incident over the weekend at a at a match where I think a person shot themselves on the draw. So no goodie. They're not uh they're not plaything. I mean, yeah, it's a lot of fun to run around with it. We let you draw and we let you run and we let you shoot, but you still gotta fall back on those four basic rules of gun safety because that's what most of our safety rules are predicated on.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean, I I respect I respect the firearm, you know. Right. I don't want to go home with a gunshot wound, especially, you know, one well, I don't want to go home with any gunshot wound, but no, I'd be very embarrassed if it was one I inflicted upon myself.
SPEAKER_05Correct. Yeah, you know, it's stupid. Yeah, we've talked about it before, but you know, when I got in the sport, and certainly Troy, when you got in the sport, the people in the sport were old hands at running at using firearms. You know, we grew up with firearms in the home, we learned to shoot at very young ages, we were taught the four rules, we had our ears boxed, or worse, if we broke one of the four rules. Um, you know, and I mean, I remember we were out at, you know, out shooting one day, and I don't I think I broke basically, I think I I don't remember exactly what I did. I did broke one of the rule, the four rules. I had to go sit in the car for the rest of the day. Yeah, I didn't get to play anymore. And that you learn real quick. And now we have people that their introduction to firearms is in video games, where you know, I mean, I'll give ACBR credit here. They actually do enforce uh some of the DQ rules in in their simulations. And um, I tested it one day, just I was curious, and by golly, they DQ'd me. Um, so um, you know, but video most video games, you know, and it's just it's just bang, bang, bang, shoot, shoot, shoot. It's there's no no thought about gun safety, um, nothing about the four rules. And so you get people that have come up in that kind of environment. They have no family history of being around firearms, they don't know the first thing, they go down to some big box store like Bass Pro or Cabela's or whatever, and or Shields or whatever, and they buy a handgun because they can, and then they want they see a bunch of videos on YouTube or wherever, and they want to go play in the sport, they have no basis of understanding anything about it, they but they just you know, they see people doing this, they go, and it is it's it is fun, but it's it's dangerous, and you know, you we have you know, if you've been handling guns all your life, it might be less dangerous. But we also know that people have been doing something all their life become a little lactical about it sometimes, right? Um, but you know, it's when I mean when I'm staying on the line and I go hot, I am very cognizant of of what I'm doing with that gun. Um, and because I understand. I, you know, it's um, you know, I under I understand what it can do, I've seen what it can do. Not not by my doing, but by other people's doing.
SPEAKER_01And you don't get you don't get health credits or respawn either.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, no. You have died and not of dysentery.
SPEAKER_01Um I mean uh if if you grew up like like I grew up, and your your parents or your uncles or your relatives took you hunting, and you know, the first thing you ever shot and killed, I mean that was that was influential, right? Yes, very hey, I just I just shot this thing that damn that's what this this thing can do, even with a BB gun, right? Yeah, yeah. Because you can shoot a little bird or something, and then of course your parents are like, Why'd you shoot that bird? Well, I want to see what their gun would do. Well, you killed it, right? And so, yeah, I mean anything that that throws something out the front end, a slingshot, a a BB gun, whatever, you gotta be careful with that. You gotta treat it seriously because it's it's a tool, but it's a deadly tool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, and we we aren't playing with ammunitions or wax bullets or anything else. We're playing with real bullets and all it's minor power factor. Well, yeah, you stand so what your stand your standard nine millimeter that you buy at the store is minor power factor, sure. Um, you know, and lots and lots. I mean, how many you know, like it's still gonna hurt. I don't know if it's still killing your graveyard dead. I still don't know if it's still the case. Um, but at one point in time on the FBI statistics, the most lethal cartridge um out there was like the 25 ACP because everybody carried them and they were just popping people, you know, bad bad people had them and you know they were being used in you know inappropriately.
SPEAKER_01Um I think the 380 silver tip surpassed it at one point.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, very likely, you know, and because that's that's actually a reasonable that's a reasonable load. Um, but yeah, it's you know, it's you just gotta it doesn't take that much to penetrate human skin, folks. It really doesn't. Um and I mean th most of us have come home with frags and whatnot from uh spall coming off of plates and poppers. So um yeah, it's it doesn't take much. So anyway. But yeah. All right, moving on.
Holstering Safeties PCC Detents And ADs
SPEAKER_05Um, so this guy sent in a bunch of rule definitions. Um and I'm not gonna read all of them. Yeah, don't uh but I I will read, I will, I will read holstered um and because it's it's relevant to the conversation. Holster the definition of holstered from appendix A3. Uh the point at which a handgun is inserted or engaged into the holster so as to not allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard. Holstering begins then when the handgun muzzle enters the holster or trigger guard enters the block. Um, so his question is based on the definition of holstered, it would seem that a handgun is holstered when the trigger is no longer accessible. However, I have seen many times over the years where a shooter makes ready with loaded gun, inserts the gun into holsters, and then applies the safety. I'm assuming thumb safety. I have heard many ROs state that as long as the shooter has their hand on the gun, they don't have to have the safety applied. That is only a DQ when they move their hand from the gun with the gun in the holster and the safety is not applied. These rules would seem to require that if the shooter starts the holstering process, the gun puzzle enters the holster, a trigger guard enters the block on a race holster. Without the safety applied, that's a DQ.
unknownCorrect.
SPEAKER_05And that that is all correct.
SPEAKER_01Um But that rule specifically says holstering a loaded gun without the safety applied, right? Right. So that verb holstering, that that definition was specifically written to support that rule.
SPEAKER_05But it's also been changed over the years, and yeah, many years where we didn't have a glossary.
SPEAKER_00Um, so well, I remember we the RMIs at one of the instructors last not instructors conference we had, we fought over that definition.
SPEAKER_05Well, when I went when I went through the RO class 23 years ago, um that was we were taught is until they remove the hand. Now, on most 1911, 2011, you know, thumb safety type uh handguns where the RO is standing, until they remove their hand, you're not gonna know whether the safety was up or down.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05And so, you know, I suspect that's why that was taught that way. I don't know that. Um, but the you know, but technically, um, if it's not if it's not engaged when you start holstering, that is a disqualification.
SPEAKER_00Well, and also the smart competitor is gonna have that safety engaged before they rehaster it.
SPEAKER_05Well, you're pointing it at your leg.
SPEAKER_00Because I mean we've got an increase of instances of people AD into their legs on the draw or holstering.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00And it's because their safety isn't they either don't engage the safety before they start holstering it, or they disengage the safety before they draw.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, disengage when they grip the gun in the holster and put the deal, which is dumb.
SPEAKER_05Well, it's like the Ralphie video that we show in in the level one seminar. I'm sure. I mean, oh yeah, I know two things. He has his the grip safety is disabled, disabled is legal, yes, which is legal in an open gun, which is what he was shooting. But the other thing I know is he dropped the thumb safety when he got his grip on the gun.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, because that thing, I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, that's so that's um, you know, it's you gotta don't think speed people. Uh think safety.
SPEAKER_00There's plenty of time on your draw as you're bringing that gun off to flip off that thumb safety.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And there's no reason load and make ready, sorry, make ready is not on the clock.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you're not in a rush. You can flip that thumb safety on before you even move it towards your holster, your re-holster.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yeah, yeah, and and anybody tells you, well, my oh, his his hand wasn't off it yet, so it's good. You just call BS on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because the whole point is, like you mentioned, you don't want that trigger hanging up on something in a safety to be off and it goes off in your holster. Yeah, right. I mean, let's without getting too deep in the woods with it. There's a certain model handgun that was somewhat notorious for going off in a holster. There ain't no safety on that gun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Right. So maybe that's maybe that's something that I mean, uh, the military added it, you know, requires it on certain models, but um that's the other thing. If you have a manual safety on a model of gun that doesn't normally come with a manual safety that's striker fired, but because of military regulations or something, or some manual safety, or some states, yeah, you gotta safe it. You have to put that safety on. You can't leave it off. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I actually upgraded my 365, which is one of my primary carry guns, to put a thumb safety on it. I mean, I've been shooting thumb safety guns for years, 20, 30 years. So it's I find that when I you know I'm shooting a non-thumb safety, you know, uh semi-auto handgun, right? My thumb is still sweeping, yeah. Mine too, you know, to get that safety down. And so it didn't bother me at all to put a thumb safety on my 365. That also, you know, I also tend to carry that appendix. So, you know, think about where you're aiming, you know, and we're we're not this this deep specifically this this DQ role is not to beat on the shooter, it's to keep you safe, right? You know, and putting that thumb safety on after you've got it all holstered up. Well, that yeah, you holstered it up and it didn't go off, and you didn't put a hole in your shoe or your leg or your ank, you know, yeah, um, or blow a chunk of your pants out or whatever. Um, you know, that's because I've seen all of those things. Um, you know, that's you know, put the damn thumb safety on. But anyway, yes.
SPEAKER_01And it the same rule applies if you're placing that gun on an object as part of the WSV, if it says put your gun on the table, yeah, yeah, you have to safe it before you set it down. Um the same with a like a PCC, right? People say, well, what do I have to put the safety on on a PCC? Well, you should put it on as soon as you chamber around.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. But definitely before you put it into place, right? Now it's a long gun, so it's not going in a holster, et cetera, and the muzzle is downrange. I get all that, but it's still a single-action gun and the safety has to be applied. So you got to put it on before you get into the start position with it, right? Um, and then we had this, we had an issue a while back recently. Uh some guy figured out that that on his PCC, if he if he moved it a certain amount, that it was on safe, but it wasn't in the in the indicator. Yeah, it was between position. Yeah, it was between fire and safe. Between fire and safe. Well, that's not legal either because your ro can't tell, right? It's got to be in a designated safe position. They make safeties that are 45 degree safeties. You put one of those on, that's fine. If that's where it goes and it's designed to do that, that's fine. But you can't just move your normal, you know, uh 90 degree safety to a 45 degree position and call it on, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you can't take your gun and have your gun manufacturer engraved safe on it. Just it's not designed for that, right? I mean, it's just they just go apart.
SPEAKER_00There's no detent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's no detent. So yeah, it's got to be in the in the in the detained position, I guess would be the right term for that. Um, and that's what that's where it goes. So the safety's important in a lot of ways. I mean, you know, we've we've had several incidents over the past year where people have ended up, you know, accidentally shooting themselves on the drawer or on the re on a holster or something like that. And that's that's becoming a problem. And I think it's because the safeties are not either not working because they've been disabled or they're not applied.
SPEAKER_05Or they're putting their finger or where it shouldn't ought to be, or right, you know, we're coming into cold weather season, and it is real common for people to end up holstering part of their jacket, yeah, which can pull the trigger. Um, you know, or you know, and that that happens all the time. It's it can also happen when you're if you're carrying concealed and you're reholstering um or holstering the first thing in the morning. Um, you know, it's um, you know, I know someone who was thankfully a three o'clock carry person who was putting his handgun in his holster in his bedroom on his way out the door and shot a nice hole in his bed. Um, you know, his wife was not pleased.
SPEAKER_01Um was it a waterbed?
SPEAKER_05No, I don't think so. But you know, and it was it was exactly, you know, his he had a light, like a sweater or jacket on, right? And that went into the holster along with the gun, and that pulled he was it was actually carrying a glock, and that actually and it pulled the trigger and it went off. Um, his wife was not pleased. So, but yeah, it's yeah, you just yeah. So, you know, it's you got you got engage your brain and engage your safety. You just you just gotta so all right, moving on.
Bay Etiquette Gear Management And Range Carts
SPEAKER_05Is it a rule that the squad that's supposed to be there in the in the pit or shooting bay, um shooting, can another quad squad come in and just be in the way? And how do you handle this?
SPEAKER_00Um that goes back to my etiquette article.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. Go read Joey's etiquette article.
SPEAKER_00Um on interroy.org and just search etiquette, you'll find it. Um, no, if there's a squad actively shooting a stage and your squad comes up, you wait in the back. Don't get in their way, don't start walking the stage, let them finish what they're doing, and then you have your turn on the bay. Yeah, you're just gonna slow them down by being in the way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, it's and how to handle it.
SPEAKER_00The ROs on the squad that's shooting should be like get out of the way. And if that squad's not listening, then you call the range master. Let them come have a conversation with them.
SPEAKER_01At the shotgun world shoot, they had a sign on every bay because their competitor, you know, staging area, I guess the covered part was uh pretty small. And then you had shotguns, right? So you had carts and you had big bags and everything else, and there were tons of spectators. But there was a sign on every bay that said only the active squad could be in the in the stage area, right? Right. Now they didn't they didn't enforce it a hundred percent. Uh, they did enforce it when somebody complained about it, but they kind of left it up to the squad that was supposed to be in there to to do it. Um, I mean, if you've ever been to CNP, those covered areas are fairly large, but if you've got a 12 or 13 person squad and they have uh range carts and they have bags and everything else, there's not really room for another squad inside that cover. Same thing at St. George, same thing at um at uh Cardinal, right?
SPEAKER_05So, you know, manners exception to the turning target stage. There's lots of room under there, right? Lots of room right there, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, and it was a it was a an enforced thing, like I said, on occasion when somebody said, Hey, there's too many people under here, and then the ROs would run the the waiting squad out. Uh, luckily, they didn't have a lot of squads that waited, right? But on occasion you would. And then they would have a lot of spectators under there, and it sprinkled rain a day or two. Of course, when it's raining, everybody wants to get undercover. Um, so then it would get really crowded in there, and you know, you got people from all over the world with with different um, I don't know, different ways that they do things, I guess. You know, so being crowded, you know. Shoulder to shoulder, back to front, whatever. To some people that was nothing. To some people, it was terrible, right?
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01But I guess to this point is yeah, have some manners, have a little bit of etiquette. Let the people that are in there, you know, going back and forth, especially if they're helping paste and stuff and it's hot and sunny and they want to get in the shade in between uh reset, then let them have their let them have their room, right?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, one year at Nationals is one the old St. George range before they re redid it. And they used to have those big ass tables. They were like a sheet of plywood, kind of big.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so the squad behind us always would catch up to us. And so I'd go shoot stage and I'd come back, and all of a sudden I couldn't find my range bag because they didn't want to get their bags dirty. So they would push all of our bags to the center of the table and put theirs around the edge.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I was just like, so I was like pushing their bags around. I wanted just to take them and throw them across the range, but I didn't want to start an instant.
SPEAKER_01That's my jerk move, though, to do that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it was like, and I understand the St. George dust gets on everything and it never comes off. But stay out of the way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or at least put your bag in the center of the table, right? Right.
SPEAKER_01And don't run under it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, don't block with the current squad, you know, their gear where they're trying to get to it, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because that's what everybody looks for anyway, is the table to put their stuff on.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, because they don't want their bags to get dirty. I know one year I was at a match, um, and uh it was uh, I think my brother was the CRO on a stage, and they had we just had like one table for the ROs, right? And uh it was the RO table. No competitors could put their bags on it. Some guy comes up and flangs his throws his bag on the table, and my brother's a CRO goes, hey, you need to get your bag off this table. He's like, Well, there's no place else for me to put my bag and gets into this big argument with him, right? Turns out it was the title match sponsor.
SPEAKER_01Oops. Oh well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they got smooth out, but uh, you know, just because you're a sponsor doesn't mean you get to take the table.
SPEAKER_05Next time a sponsor can sponsor some damn tables.
SPEAKER_00But it's like, you know, that's why a lot of people move the carts, you know, because they know there's not gonna be there's not always gonna be tables.
SPEAKER_05That's right. That and slapping a range bag around my my shoulders and my back were much more pleased with me this year at Factory Gun tugging my cart around than they have been with me dragging a even a yeah, I went to a backpack several years ago. Yeah. And but even that, even the backpack is yeah, it's just so much easier with a cart.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, plus you can have a cooler on there and you know those those range carts, the S3s and stuff, yeah. You know, I mean, they they were originally what uh disc golf carts, yeah. That's what they were developed for, but those are pretty nice. I mean, they've made some improvements in them. You got room to reload and clean mags, and you know, some of them have a little place you can sit and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_05So I almost bought one of those, but I couldn't umbrella to it. Yeah, I couldn't get it in time for factory gun, and the shipping is ridiculous. It's almost it's half of the cost of the cart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So uh to where I live. So it's like, yeah, no. But I've seen those and they are very cool. So if I found one, you know, that was local and have to pay for shipping, I might be real eBay or something, and yeah, go pick it up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The uh there's a guy that comes to WSSC that has a a cart that he's modified, he's built it around one of those kids' uh electric cars.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And he and he he remote controls it.
SPEAKER_03There you go.
SPEAKER_01It just it just comes down the road. You can hear it coming as he's driving it with a yeah, with a joystick, you know. Well, you know, they've got you don't even have to pull it.
SPEAKER_05They have golf bags now that that are motorized, and some of them even have a follow-me feature. So you put like a bob in your pocket or whatever, and it follows you really go. It just follows you. Yeah, and you know, for wide open, something like a golf course that that works.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I just I was thinking a whole squad of those. Oh, what could go wrong?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Like demolition derby. Why is that gun cart attacking the porta potty?
SPEAKER_01I saw a I saw a story this week uh that I think uh the Ukrainians used a heavy lift drone to rescue a soldier off the battlefield. And it actually picked him up. Yeah. Yep. So I don't know what that costs and and what you got to do to get it, but I will I would be not too badly surprised if somebody showed up at a match with a with a drone carrying their bag around.
SPEAKER_05Well, they couldn't do it at our nationals because we banned drones, but well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00When I was down at the class in Dallas, oh we were driving by the Walmart, and there was little Walmart drones hovering and picking up packages to go deliver.
SPEAKER_05So yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was weird.
SPEAKER_05They don't have that here.
SPEAKER_00No, they don't have it here.
SPEAKER_05We we we have too many rednecks that would shoot them out of the sky.
SPEAKER_00Um well, also Walmart's kind of right in the flight path at the airport, so well, they'd have yeah, they would have to stay pretty low.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Walmart, of course, in Bentonville, Arkansas, northwest Arkansas, has a huge presence there. That's the motherfucker. Yeah, and they have that kind of drone delivery all over, and in the evenings you can see them because they're flashing lights, right? And man, they're they're just all over the place. It's yeah, it's crazy how many of them are flying around dropping stuff in people's yards. Yep.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's a whole new world.
Rule 11.5.5 Inadvertent Steps And Shortcuts
SPEAKER_05All right, next C the last thing we wanted to talk about. Um is we we we've been over one one five five a number of times here on the podcast. We've had at least two articles on the blog about it. Um, and we're still getting questions. So Jody wanted to talk about one one five five some more. So go for it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I wrote, so I did a question of the month back in the spring and forgot about it. So I did another about one one five five, and so I did another one, but the the second one, um, I brought in the inadvertent step part of that rule. The first uh question of the month on it was just a straight shortcut. Um, so in this question of the month, the competitor did uh one inadvertent step when they were backing up, so just one foot out and then came back in, and then later did a shortcut. Right. And so I basically was testing people's knowledge of the inadvertent step part of the rule. And uh I should pull it up so I can read it. And that got a quite a few people. I got some fan mail. Um people questioning and be like, well, that's not how we've been applying it and stuff, which is why we do the question a month, right? We hear things that um um we see people, you know, we hear about stories about things not getting enforced consistently or people are confused. So 1155, the WSB may specify that competitors must stay within the fault lines for the entire course of fire. Movement outside the fault lines will incur a per shot procedural penalty for any targets engaged after such movement. Drop steps are allowed as are inadvertent steps outside the fault lines, as long as the competitor steps back into the fault lines in the same direction. So that's one sentence. Drop steps are allowed as are inadvertent steps outside the fault lines as long as the competitor steps back into the fault lines in the same location. So drop steps are a one foot out kind of a thing. Inadvertent steps, the intention is one foot out. Um apparently people are reading that you can totally shortcut, and that's a whole series of inadvertent steps. But as long as you run back and come back in the same location where you started your shortcut and then not shortcut and before you shoot, you don't get any penalties. And then the you get the time penalty for you get a time penalty, but that's not what the rule says.
SPEAKER_05No.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so in the blog post, I pointed out that you know, if you take a shortcut, you really can't undo it. Right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, if both feet have left the shooting area, you're kind of hosed. And that's the part that people were mostly disagreeing with.
SPEAKER_05Um well, you know, if if you want to change to that rule, contact your member of the board, uh, your area director on the board. They're the ones that make the rules. Um and express, and we got a whole every time you put one of these up, we get a whole bunch of emails going, you need to change the rule. Well, NROI doesn't write the rules. Uh well, but you think about it though.
SPEAKER_00So let's say we change the whole point of this rule was to make sure people don't do shortcuts. Right. Right. And make it hurt if you do.
SPEAKER_05It's a stage design tool.
SPEAKER_00It's a stage design tool. And so if we do this well, but you could go take the shortcut and back, come back as long as you don't fire a shot, it kind of nullifies this rule. So it kind of makes it a stupid rule to have, then, in my opinion. Um, but at the same time, you know, it when you're building stages, like someone asks, so what if it's like a 90-degree corner and I step across, I don't go around the corner, I step across the corner, right? So they don't make contact with the ground outside. Right? They just kind of shortcut the corner a little bit. I'm like, well, then you'd be fine because you don't take a step outside.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00But a smart stage designer is gonna put a barrel there, so no one can do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. So part of it is um, you know, 1155 should not be a replacement to lazy stage design. No, it should be used to augment a stage design. It shouldn't just be a blanket. We're all the stages are one one five five because we're too lazy to put walls up either.
SPEAKER_05So you know, people have been asking for this rule long before Ipsy had a similar rule. No, we did not copy the IpsyC role. Um, they've been asking I at least 10-15 years. People have been asking for a rule like this. And the answer has always been if you don't want them to leave leave the fault lines, don't use fault lines, use walls.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05Um, and that's how we did stage design, and that's that's just the way it was done. And you know, then you could, you know, you get somebody would design a stage for the club match that used every wall the club owned. Um, and so they couldn't actually use that stage. And you know, that's that is you know, that's just the way it is, and that's why people were asking for this role. It's been asked for for a long, long time. And um, it it's just a stage design tool. And yeah, don't do every stage in your match with this role. That's that's gonna be another one of those things where yeah, I'm not shooting their matches anymore. They just they've taken all the fun out of it. And you're gonna see a drop in uh participation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Anyway, so I just wanted to revisit that. I think some of the people who read that read the blog posts learned a little more. Um, and then we've also had emails where people are comparing it to the IpsyC rule and how Ipsyc applies it. Different rule set.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we didn't we did not copy the ipsy rule.
SPEAKER_00That's that is theirs is worded different than ours. Theirs, you know, maybe it's applied different than ours, but it's a different rule. So, you know, it's kind of like if you want to shoot IpsyC rules, you use the IPSIC rule book. If you want to shoot USPSA rules, you use the USPSA rule book. So just because we're we're we're cousins doesn't mean that we have to we're everything's enforced identically.
SPEAKER_04Correct. All right, well that's all we had on the list.
SPEAKER_05Anything
Wrap Up Overlays Classes And Email
SPEAKER_05else we want to need to go over or want to go over?
SPEAKER_03I'm good. I'm good, all right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm I'm on countdown and 57 days to retirement, so good for you. Yeah. Um yeah, it's hopefully that will mean I get to work and shoot a lot more matches and uh have a lot more fun. So I'm not totally retiring, I'm not retiring from this job, but the day job that burns all my time is gonna sunset. So that's and that's a good thing. Um yeah, so anyhow, um yeah, with that, thanks everybody, and thanks for uh listening to the podcast. And um yeah, if you have any questions, comments, concerns, whatever, rules at uspsa.org and we will get back to you as soon as we can. Um we both all must have been pretty busy this weekend because a couple questions kind of sat there for a little bit, but they got taken care of yesterday and today. Um, so yeah, just write in and and we will get you an answer as soon as we possibly can. We we are getting a fair number of questions. We've talked about this before and it just popped into my head. Um, if you're if you're doing a level two or higher match and you need overlays for your staff, contact Terry at the head office, t-e-r-ri at uspsa.org, and uh she can send you out some overlays. But this does need to be for a match. We don't supply overlays just my club wants you know 200 overlays. No, that isn't the way we do that. So um, or better yet, be a class because everybody gets overlays when they take the class, and that's a really good way to get overlays and get your and get your people trained. We it's interesting when we hear from folks and you know, we start engage a conversation sometimes, and especially at matches, and people talk to us and it's like, well, how many certified ROs do you have in your club? Oh, I think I'm the only one. Well, there's your problem. So um, yeah, it's easy. Get your classes, got about not quite a dozen on the books uh already for 27, 10 or 11. Um, and so, you know, but here we are, we're just in them and you know, towards the end of October. Um, and so yeah, you know, talk with your club and get those get those on the calendar, and you can get them in the spring before the shooting season really kicks off. And uh, yeah, we got plenty of instructors. We'll be more than happy to come out and do any of the three seminars that we do. And so, yeah. Anyway, with that, thanks everybody. Have a good one. Good night. Good night. Good night. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find nroy seminars under the NROI tab at USPSA.org. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRY tab at USPSA.org.