Disclaimers And Welcome

SPEAKER_01 0:11

This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Office Institute, United States Fractual Scooting Association, and Steel Town Scooting Association. All world books can be found at USBsta.org slash tools, SBSA.org slash tools, and on the USBS Day and SDSA apps available near Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written commitments to the director of the National Range Obst Institute. Rule discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules could be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 106, recorded mid-August 2026.

Race Gun Nationals Setup Update

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the NRI podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Emmel, and as usual, joining me tonight are our director, Troy McMenus, from all the way from Ohio. Good evening, Troy. Good evening. And Jody Human. Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Good evening.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

So Troy, uh, you're off in Ohio working setup for Race Gun Nationals. Um, how's that going? How's the match looking?

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Um, it's going very well. We we set roughed in all the stages in two days, two pretty short days. Uh dodged a little bit of rain. Uh it's been off and on with the weather. And I think we're supposed to get some more rain uh maybe Friday night. It's supposed to be some storms, but the the range is very well covered in limestone rock, so uh it's not a real mud hole. And the parking area is good, etc. So it's not going to be that big a deal. We have waterproof targets coming, so won't be shooting in bags. Uh I noticed uh uh at lunchtime today, one of the setup guys, Chris Baker, was playing uh uh Brian Connolly's uh podcast or the live cast or whatever it's called behind the lens. So Jake was on it, and Jake was mentioning everybody's name that was here. Of course, he ain't here, but he's coming. You know, he'll be here Sunday, I think. But yeah, he was talking about everybody. Because I spoke with him yesterday about getting some of the sponsor banners together and stuff like that. So and also the staff jerseys. Uh all the staff are getting the mass jersey. Uh they're not gonna be any different from the main from the competitor jerseys. So we gotta go dig through the boxes and sort some out by size for them, but that's not gonna be a big deal. And that was kind of the word from Jake about that. So uh they got some good sponsors this year. There's a lot of them actually. Um stage sponsors are all covered up. There's gold and silver and other levels. So I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be a a good match. The stages so far, uh I've been moving walls and and driving spikes, but uh they look like interesting stages. There's gonna be some challenging shots. I mean, it is a race gun national, so you would expect that. Expect a little distance, probably some no-shoots and some small poppers and movers and stuff like that. Uh, but yeah, overall the setup has been going well. We've got uh 12 people working on it. Um, and usually 12 people is not my optimal number. I usually go for a little bit less than that, but this has been working out very well. So uh Matt Hopkins has taken the lead on setting up. I think between him and Scott Beebe, they designed all the stages. So Matt's doing a heck of a job with it and making sure that everybody's got a job to do and that those jobs are getting done. Uh he really has embraced the benevolent dictator approach, I think.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

So that's the only way it works. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yeah, that's the only way it works. And you're right. And uh, but we split into two groups and sort of leapfrog stages as we roughed them in, and that worked out really well. Uh Russ Fortney led one group and Matt led the other. So uh Russ was pretty good at laying out stages. And then we got into fine-tuning and you know, making sure we had sticks in the targets and eyeballing where they are, et cetera, uh today. So we got half the match done today, and I think they'll finish that up tomorrow. And then after that, it's gonna be detail work, uh, hanging banners, plotting out where we're gonna put um targets and what kind of targets, that sort of thing. And also, you know, stage boxes, et cetera. All the little detailed stuff you gotta do, painting fault lines, painting the barrels, getting the walls cleaned up. So but so far so good. Um, it's working out well. Weather's been nice too. I was I was talking to Danny Mentor this morning, and it was, I don't know, 72 degrees, which is for me in August, if I was home, it would have been 98 degrees. Yeah, man, I'm glad we're doing this here in Not Louisiana because we'd be dead.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah. Yeah, we've been having a little bit of cooler weather past couple days, but it's hard to enjoy it when the smoke levels are as high as they are right now. So oh well. Um, all right, well, very good. So race gun kicks off. Um see staff guys staff Wednesday and Thursday, and um the the main match starts up Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So yeah, fun will be had by all. Yeah.

Staff Rosters And Applications Timeline

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Um, yeah, if you're on Factor Gun staff, you should have received an email with you a link to the staff um webpage that has rosters on it. My apologies to those that got missed and whose names got misspelled. This is what happens when you do work by committee. Um, and that has all been hopefully taken care of as of yesterday morning. Um so the staff list that is posted on the webpage is the current staff list. There were no changes that I'm aware of today. Yeah, again, if you are not gonna make it, please let us know. Um so that we can get you off the roster and move people around if necessary. Uh, we've lost one person designated as CRO, so we've backfilled with likely we pre-thought that. We already had spare CROs ready to go, so we got that taken care of. Um so yeah, things are coming together for Factor Gen, which kicks off um more or less a week from a week from tomorrow. I think I have to be there. So uh or a month from tomorrow, excuse me. It's gonna say a month, yeah. Yeah, yeah, a month, not a week. It'll feel like a freaking week, let me tell you. Um, as fast as time goes anymore. So yeah, actually, I'll be driving a week from today. So um yeah, looking forward to it. Um got a couple questions. Um you know, as we when we go around the country and teach classes, one of the things we tell people is we invite them to come join us and work nationals and um gotten several questions over the past little while about well, I don't I see a link for national staff applications, but I don't it doesn't do anything. And so just thought we'd remind folks that staff applications for nationals typically go live in January. Um, they're usually announced right here on the podcast, as well as in the downrange newsletter and on the website. So keep your peepers peeled. And keep in mind we get a lot more applications than we take than we can take. And we have than we have positions for. Um, I still remember the the bad old years when they were were sending out letters um two weeks before the match going, hey, you're kind of local. Are you sure you can't work the match? We need more staff. Those those days are gone, and we have um a lot, you know, this this the uh slots for staff go pretty quickly. So um if you're intent on working as staff at Nationals, um be sure on, you know, pay attention and get your application in. If you don't make it next year, keep trying. Um, we do take some brand new, newly minted ROs and into the staff at Nationals. You don't have to be um you know long-time service. There's we got to break in the new folks somehow. So um that does happen. So yeah. Um, what else do we need to talk about before we dive into the deep end?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Let me throw in a couple of things about that application process. So RaceGun is pretty much uh finished up as far as room assignments, stage assignments, per diem, et cetera, right? Factory gun, uh we we have a list for people in rooms. We have a per diem list that's gonna the per diem will be issued the next week uh when I get home from listening. And communication back and forth is critical, right? So I cannot text everybody, I cannot call everybody. You have to check your email, right? So there's two ways you're gonna get email if you apply. One of them is from NATApp at uspsa.org, which is the NASA's application system, and it's me writing it, or it's automated because if you apply and then you get approved, then it'll send you a notice that says you've got to fill out the additional information. You have to pay attention to that, and you need to get that done because it it takes a while to coordinate all of this stuff, right? Um, I've gotten emails this week uh from somebody at Factory Gun that said, Am I shooting the match? And I'm like, How the heck would I know if you're shooting a match? Didn't you sign up, right? Well, I didn't see it. Well, you didn't check, is what you didn't do.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

You didn't pay attention.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, so read your email, don't blow it off. Uh if you've got a spam filter or something, then put nadap at uspsa.org in your in your accepted senders. And the other one's gonna come from me, which is gonna be DNR at uspsa.org. And that should not go to your spam in general, but uh double check, right? Um if you haven't heard from us, uh I mean we apply in January, the matches are in August, June, whatever. Uh the first couple months, you're probably not gonna hear too much. But after that, you should be expecting to get something if you've been accepted. So you gotta check your email and you have to respond to what you're sent because uh I'm not a travel a travel agent and I'm not here to babysit you. You're a grown adult, right? You volunteered to work this match, you've got to pay attention to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yep. Um and I and I'm pretty sure the application asks you to verify your email.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

But some people tend to put junk emails in for USPSA because they don't want to get all the emails. Um yeah, you make sure you're using the email that you actually can check that you are checking.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Well, and for that, for that matter, I know you don't like all the emails from USPSA, but we have I have I've had three, four students this year in classes go, I never got a link for my for my test. It's like, well, what email do you have on file with USPSA? Oh, I don't, I just use a garbage email because I don't want all the uh stuff. Well, guess what? That's where your test went. Yeah, you need to go fix it.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

You can opt out of some of that stuff, right? Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Oh, you can also opt out of all emails, which means you don't get any class related or Nazi related emails from USPSA.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

But you there is a pick list you can opt out of. Yeah, and I mean you can opt out.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

I wouldn't recommend opting out of everything.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

No, nope. Be a damn grown-up. Yeah. So but I mean, it's just I'm just frustrated about having to do this stuff, uh, you know, last minute stuff when I'm communicating with the hotel because Heather's out, which she deserves a vacation, right? And I I can do it, but I just don't like having to hit this guy every other day and say, Oh, can you add this, or can you take this guy off, or can you do this for me, right? Right. Yeah, it's every time I ask for that, he sent me a copy of their list. And it's not just a list, it's a it's a complex document, right? Because this is a huge room block that we use. So um, and don't call a hotel and try to see about your room and all that stuff, all that's up front. Read that document before you apply, right? If you can't commit to that stuff, then don't put your application in.

unknown 13:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah, and we we totally understand that crap happens and people have to withdraw. Um, you know, I was signed up to work in National's one year and two weeks before the match, my grandfather died, and hey, family comes first. And you know, we understand crap happens, but uh um, you know, don't stop right that's it's not a big deal, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah. Um now I have some perpetual cancelers that every every year apply and then they cancel out, and so you're probably not gonna get picked if that's what's happening. But yeah. Picked again because I mean fool me once, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, like we said, that those lists are up on um the staff, the staff secret page. You should have gotten an email from Troy with the link and the super secret, you'll never guess this in a million years password. Um, and uh yeah, get in there, grab that information. Uh again, keep in mind that in some of that information is confidential. Um, just because you have access to the page doesn't mean you need to be posting it all over the place. Um, in fact, if we do find you posting it all over the place, that may not go well for you. So um, yeah, that's we let you have access to it early because your staff, but it's not first of all, a lot of that stuff isn't 100% final. Um so you know, we're this is this is the doodles on the back of the napkin stage right now. So so yeah, it will be released probably shortly after uh race gun is finished because we just don't want the confusion of people grabbing the wrong matchbook and showing up at the right match going, well, these stages don't look anything like in the matchbook, which is kind of normal, but yeah, but not that far off, right? Not that far off. What about Utah?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah. So we have uh actually seven national championships next year.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Um but only three of those are gonna be in that application process. The rest are all contracted out, right? Uh we'll probably post information uh as who's the mass director, etc., so that you can contact them directly if you want to try to work that match. For the contract matches. Yeah, the contracted matches. Yeah, yeah. So WSSC is one, the steel challenge match is one, the open type match is another, and uh and the limited type match is is the third one, right? Single stack production revolver and L10 are all gonna be at Rio, that's a contracted match. PCC and Mini Rifle are gonna be at Forest Lake, that's a contracted match. Multi-gun is a contracted match at Forest Lake. Um, what was the other one? They were all announced just recently.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Ipsic Nationals?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Ipsic Nationals, yeah, that's a contracted match. I think that's the seven. Yeah. But go to the USPSA webpage and look them up, and if that's something you want to try to work, uh information on Master Ector, etc., should be there. And and that could, you know, you can contact them directly.

SPEAKER_04 16:44

Um we do we will need staff for the others. So um you want to go to whatever else on your list?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Dive in dive into the deep end.

Record Seminar Schedule And Plans

SPEAKER_00 17:00

So we have uh set another record for seminars.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yes, we have.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Last year we had 92. Right now we're at 96 or 97.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Well, the other one came out today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah. We were at 95. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a lot of seminars. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

But we're having you're still youngish.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, and in 27, I'm gonna try to plan another academy somewhere so we can combine a pre-academy instructor meeting and then do the academy. And that's a completely NROI-sponsored thing. We just have to find a venue to do it. So uh I'll start shopping around for places to do that, and that will enable people that are willing to travel or people that are local to attend. And it's uh R O C R O and and I guess we could put S Steel Challenge away, too.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah, right. Um we need to like plot out where all our classes have been, find the patient that's lacking the classes.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah. Well, that meets all the other criteria of being near a major airport.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Well, I mean that still has a population base big enough within yeah, right, yeah. Reasonable driving distance that we just like get people.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yeah, there's some places in the south and in the west where we probably never had a class, but nobody's right.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

You know, North Dakota, South Dakota, there's not much there. So you know I've never seen a class request for those states.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, we've had that we've had classes in South Dakota. I've never seen one in North Dakota, but we've had classes in South Dakota. It's been a while, but we've had them. Um and uh yeah, you know, it's it's you know East Jackrabbit, Arizona, probably not gonna get a lot of people to show up there. So but yeah. Anyhow, um, so that's that'll be a good thing. So more, you know, stay tuned to the podcast. We'll have information on all of that here. It'll also show up in the downrange newsletter. Um, but you all know it's way more fun to listen to us talk about it than it is to read it in the newsletter. So all right, diving into the deep end.

Speed Shoot Reload Rule Clarified

SPEAKER_01 19:26

We've we had a couple emails over the past week or two. Um and um we kind of need to eat our words a little bit or and clarify a couple things. So um the first one is uh last episode we talked about uh a speech coursifier, and um you guys dug into that deeper uh than I did. So um I'll let you guys take it and run with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

That was like two weeks ago. But that the so these next two topics, I just want to say we broke our number one rule. We always say always consult the real book first, reread the rule. We didn't do that. So the pre the speed shoot was a stage where it was like what two swingers and eight poppers at least, eight poppers, and it just said you had to do a reload before the last shot or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

The last two before the last two shots. After the first shot and before the last two shots.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Yeah. And we were like, well, that's not legal. Well, we read the rules. Do you have the rule pulled up, Troy?

SPEAKER_04 20:44

Not in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Well, you're no fun. Here, I'll get it. Uh types of courses. So speed shoots, courses of fire. It's one, two, two, three for those of you who want to follow along. Uh speed shoot, courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire, not exceeding 16 rounds. So it was legal for that. Shot on one or more arrays and multiple targets from a single location. All of that was fine. Uh the WSB may specify engaging target arrays of targets without violating the freestyle rule. Um, as long as the competitor can engage arrays in any order and targets in any order. Uh, no, this is the relevant. No more than eight rounds may be required without a mandatory reload. And no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. So for years we all thought, you know, after eight rounds, there's got to be a place for a reload. And that's what we were basing our knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

And those of us that showed eight round divisions believe that to be true.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

But I can see now with the wording of this, it says maybe no more than eight rounds may be required. Yeah. And that's Was basically letting the competitor choose where they did their reload. And those limited capacity divisions are going to be doing it at eight for sure.

SPEAKER_05 22:09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Depends on how many times you miss the field.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

We were treating it like it said aloud. And it's and it's required. So if you can shoot 10 rounds and reload, or you can shoot, you know, in this case, in this example, you'd have to shoot uh 14 and reload, I guess. Um and it I mean it was an honest mistake. Uh but again, like Jody said, we didn't really read the rule about it. Um the person that wrote us about it that quoted Russ Fortney, and I talked to Russ this week and got it, you know, we're on the same page with that, and it's the required thing, right? And he agrees that if the rule said no more than eight rounds may be allowed without a mandatory reload, then that that particular stage would not be legal. But as it's written, it is legal, right? And it's, you know, it's we make throwaway comments on this sometimes, so calling it a lazy course design was probably not the best thing to say, but uh apologies for that. It actually is a fairly smart course design, right?

unknown 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Uh based on the rules, and you know, so we're human, we make mistakes, and you know, this was never this was the fix for that.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

And the poor guy that had to carry 14 poppers to the line definitely wasn't lazy.

SPEAKER_05 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah. So okay.

Half Cock Confusion Across Divisions

SPEAKER_01 23:42

And while we have Crow on our plate, um might as well have a little more. Um, we talked, I think it was two podcasts ago.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Um, it was the last one.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Was that the last one? Oh, so the last one was just a red letter podcast for us.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah. Um so talking about ready conditions and limited optics, and so let's clarify that one.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Well, so what the original email was about was someone shooting, I think it was a CZ shadow, yeah, too. Um, that I don't know if it has safety or not, but they wanted to start at the half-cock position while shooting LO. Right. And we looked at we looked at rules, so that's a selective action firearm. And so the ready conditions for selective action is chamber loaded with hammer fully down or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged. Right. So if you don't meet one of those two conditions. Not in the right ready condition, right? If you and if you change actually if you holster a gun in neither of those two conditions, it's actually a DQ.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah. It doesn't matter anymore because you get the goal.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Yeah. So if the gentleman wanted to do this in LO and we told him not, then he pointed out, well, but we allow them to do it in CO, and it's just a move to open. And we were like, no, it isn't. Well, again, it's been a long time since I've had to apply this rule in cary optics. Yeah. Um, but if you look at special condition number one in both production and carry optics, it basically says manually decocking to the half-composition is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to open.

unknown 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

So these rules kind of conflict why we let it you know, when in one division it's one thing and in two divisions it's just welcome to open.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

But if it has a safety that was my question, is if it if it has a safety and you're half at halfcock manually.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

I don't think you'll apply at halfcock.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah. That would be the other question.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

It's like a 1911, you can't most 1911s you can't put the safety on at halfcock. If you even have a half cock notch. A lot of them don't.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yeah, you can't put it on with it down either. So yeah, I mean there was some confusion about that. If you if you're in LO though, limited optics, and you want to cock it and put the safety on, that's fine.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

If it has a safety. If it doesn't have a safety, then that's gonna be a no-go. It's gonna have to start hammered down.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Oh yeah. Yeah. So and not and not, I think, you know, um, I think he was trying to, I mean, when he was talking about half-cocked and three-quarter cocked, you know, to me, like manually dropping to the safety notch, I don't consider that half-cocked. But I think that's where he was trying to go with it.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

But I mean, so but if if you know your gun has a decocker, you would decock it. Right. You can start that way with yellow, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:14

And it just goes back to this whole thing we've brought to the board multiple times about it's probably not the safest thing to let people drop completely the hammer completely down. Right. We should be dropping to the safety notch.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Right. Yeah, at the bare minimum we need to clean up the differences. Um yeah, I I think it's that because it's it's a mess right now and it it has been for a long time, but now that just a we've now just realized that the mess is bigger than it we had really.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Well, the mess is it's because it's starting to carry over into other divisions. Because it used to be like so when the first selective action where we had this whole hammer down thing, you know, didn't start being an issue till what we added the increased the max weight for production guns on the list, right? So we got all the CZs and metal frame guns in there. Um but you know, at that time, limited division, and we didn't have limited optics, but limited division was, you know, dominated by 2011s. And so, you know, everyone was had hammerback safety on. It was an issue. But now we have people wanting to shoot, you know, maybe take their cary optics gun, leave the map, put a magwell on it and slide rack or whatever they else other things they want to do and go shoot an LO.

SPEAKER_05 28:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

So we do need to clean it up. I mean, I think it needs to be consistent. Why is it an unsafe gun in limited or limited optics, but not in cary optics and production?

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we you have to you have to really it's it's helpful sometimes to realize that the production appendix was originally written in the late 90s. I think it became a real division in 2000 or 2000. I want to say in the 2000 book, it was a still a provisional division. And it became a real division like in 2001. You know, and we've we've added to those that that division requirements. We've, you know, it's been modified over the years, but there's you know, there's been some creep, and it it's just like the backstraps with Glocks. Um, you know, the original rules were written the way they were written, for whatever reason they were written that way. Well, guess what? Glocks have evolved, but our rule set didn't evolve with them. So essentially, right now we're penalizing you for having a gen one or gen two Glock. Um which were the Glocks probably when that appendix was written. They were Gen 1 at that point in time.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Probably Gen 1, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah. Um because I remember when the Gen 2s came out, but um, so you know, it's and we're we're working on fixing that and taking care of some of the backstrap things. Um, but it's a slow process. And you know, when we get into changing division requirements, it requires you know, the bylaws require that this goes out for member comment, and it it it is a process, it takes a while. It isn't, you know, when I got into the sport, rulings were issued all the time, and stuff came and went kind of regularly. Um, and uh that's not the case anymore. Um, so we just have to be patient. Um, you know, and if if you uh if you feel strongly about some of these things, uh reach out to your board of your area director and express your feelings. Be polite, be nice, um, be clear, and um because they're they otherwise they're operating in a vacuum and they don't necessarily know how y'all feel. So it's it's always a good idea to reach out to your area director um and let them know. Um, don't just blast the whole board. You you have an area director for your area start there, please.

Safeties Must Use Real Detents

SPEAKER_00 31:16

So while we're on the subject of safeties, let's talk about putting it in the wrong place.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So as a competitor that that emailed me about his PCC, uh, would it be legal to move his safety to a spot where the trigger still couldn't be pulled, but it's not in the detent and it's not pointing at the word safe, right? The answer to that is no. It's gotta be the RO doesn't know where that safety is on or off, if it's you know, halfway up, three-quarters of the way up, two-thirds of the way up, uh, you know, towards the fire uh area.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

So it doesn't have a click.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, it doesn't click. And that's what the detents are for. It's if it'll click into the safe position where it's engraved on the receiver safe, or it clicks into the fire position where it's engraved on the receiver fire. Uh if you've got one with a fun switch, then might be, you know, there's a third position. Sometimes even a fourth.

unknown 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah, or maybe even a fourth. Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

There's the the fun, there's the fun, funner, and fun esque setting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

So uh, but I mean, obviously full auto fire is not legal, right? Nope. No, you can't depend with a gun like that as long as you're firing at a semi-auto.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Yeah, you don't pass past fire. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

So, but evidently this competitor sent that gun to his manufacturer and they engraved another safe line on it. Just the word. Just the word, but no detent. I think there's a $49 safety you can buy. Somebody mentioned the 49 books, I don't know. Uh, that's a three-quarter safety, right? And it does have a detent and it functions as a safety, and those are legal. We've seen them all over the place. But you can't just have your your gun maker engrave safe on the gun and then point your safety to it, right? Um, and claim that it came from the factory like that because um he made the mistake of sending pictures in before and it wasn't on that gun, and the the serial number was in the picture. So it's pretty easy to tell it was the same gun, right? Same PCC.

unknown 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

So that's uh, you know, it's not good. And he ended up being disqualified for it. So, you know, that didn't turn out well either. Um, but I mean he did ask me, and I told him no, and of course he just blew that off. So uh now people that want to argue about the multi-gun rules where like if you abandon your gun and it bumps the safety halfway on or halfway off, and we check it to see, that's a different situation. That's an abandoned gun that you put on a platform or you put in a barrel or something, and it may have moved the safety. You're not starting that way, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

So uh PCCs are single action guns, the safety has to be on when you start because that hammer's copped. So that's that's the thing about that. Um, second question we got about this was could they remove the factory installed California compliant manual safety on their uh was it a C XD X on an XT, yeah. Um or was it an MP?

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Well one of those two. Yeah, I think it was an XD because we were having the discussion about the dingus on the trigger.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah. So anyway, it it's California compliant, it comes with a manual safety, and the answer is no, you may not remove that manual safety because it's prohibited.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

And they were in cary optics, it was the MP. I just looked it up.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Okay, and carry optics. So even though it it comes with the trigger safety, the manual safety is factory installed, and you according to the cary optics rules, you may not take that off. Yes. Um, also, if you live in California, I think you're probably violating California law by taking that off, but I'm not sure. I don't I don't know. I'm not a legal expert. But it seems or a Californian. Or a Californian, yeah. If they ship you that that way to be California compliant, I think you probably should leave it on. But you cannot cannot take it off, even though they make a model without it, right? Yeah. Um, but it it's just not removable. So don't do that. The safety is there for both, you know, for kind of for your protection. So uh I told Jody and Kevin this before we started. Uh there's a big trap tournament going on here at Cardinal, and somebody shot himself in the foot yesterday. So trap guys tend to put their shotgun on their toe. Uh, whether whether it was cracked open or it was a semi-auto or what, I have no idea. But this was the story I was told that he shot himself in the foot. So that safety probably wasn't on on that gun. If you don't have the safety on like your holstering, and we've talked about this before, and that trigger gets hung up, you're gonna shoot it through the holster. Probably shoot yourself in the leg or something. So that safety is there for your protection, right? Yeah, yeah. And you need to use it, you know, make sure that you need to make sure that it works.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

And yeah, let's yeah, let's make it the reminder. Remember, if you're going to a major match, they test your safety at uh chronograph.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

So you want to make sure that thing's working. Because if not, they're gonna make you fix it.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah, and speaking of which, did you all see the video from the guy that had an A B at a training event and um got himself into Twig and OneBerry? No, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he actually himself, it's actually it's a really good video. I I really I take my hat off to the guy for um putting it out there. I mean, he's long time. Assuming this was a post-event. Yes, this was a post-event. Um and he's walking around in a cane, he's obviously in quite a bit of pain still. Um, but I mean he goes through the whole thing of of uh you know what happened and uh was it an appendix bolster? Yes, he was carrying appendix. Um and you know, but he's been carrying that gun that way for many years. But you know, in a training class, trying to, you know, go for 10 out of 10 on speed or whatever um, you know, stuff happens. Uh Kolian Noir did a breakdown of it and gave his opinion of what he thinks happened. I kind of think he's right.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Um just because curious corn minds want to know what kind of gun.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Glock.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Uh yeah. I wonder what trigger he had in there.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

I don't know what generation, I don't know um any, you know, whatever else. I mean, he went through the side of the it it it actually went through the side of the kydex holster um and uh and uh and got him. Um luckily there were people on site that knew what to do and how to do it, and got everything packed off and got him, you know, to uh the hospital. And uh, you know, he'll be fine. He's a little lighter and uh, you know, but um, but he survived. And uh so but it's and I I really I do take my hat off to the guy for putting that video out there because it's it's those types of things that make people actually think and you know act accordingly. And there are probably a lot of people that are rethinking carrying appendix with around in the chamber. And um, my carry gun has the thumbs has the thumb safety, the one the one that I carry appendix. And you know, that there's I put that thumb safety on it for that very reason. So um that's you know, but yeah, and it word to the wise. It's in the videos out there, um, and it shouldn't be hard to find. Uh you can for sure find it via Koen R. He had a link to the whole video in his in his video. So yeah, fun stuff. Um use that safety. Yeah, you know, and it's you know what what Colin Noir felt happened was as he drew the gun, he was dragging his finger across the holster. And when the trigger came clear of the holster, his finger finger dropped into the to the trigger and set it off. Yeah, I think it's that's probably pretty close to what happened.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

So that's that's how the uh AD that happened, like right in front of me when I was RO and it was uh it was uh uh SERPA holster. Yep. Press the button, you know, kind of had kind of fumbled the button, got the button pressed, and as soon as the gun cleared the holster, finger was in the trigger guard, and bam, right through the bottom of the holster.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah. Yeah, that was that was blood pressure raising for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Oh yeah, it was exciting. And the timer off if you there are oh, that's my only piece of advance on that one.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Um yeah, for all of us that were there, that was disturbing. Um but um hey, nobody got hurt, and that's why it's funny now.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Oh yeah, I mean, there was just a nice permanent burn mark on his cargo pants, and um yeah, um Blake Tech was there as the match sponsor, so he bought a new holster that same day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Yeah. Good times, good times. All right, moving on.

Range Rules Versus USPSA Rules

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Um, let's see, we got that one, we got that one. Um we got a few months ago, we got an email um regarding a specific range um that was requiring range membership to shoot USPSA or only allowing range members to shoot USPSA. Um, and you know, we explained at the time that if that is the range that is requiring membership, not the club, the USPSA club, then they can do that. And um, we guess got another email this week and letting us know that it'd been resolved. It would the problem all along was an insurance problem, and the range was did not have insurance that would cover others. And so they were disinclined to allow others to compete on their property, which I 100% get. Um, they've now since resolved the insurance issue and have opened the matches up. So, you know, this is this is something to keep in mind. There is that range properties can restrict who can be on their property. And you know, USPSA can't go in and say, well, if you're gonna hold a USPSA match, it has to be open for every single person that shows up. That is not the case. Um, they have their reasons for restricting um, you know, who can be on their property, and as long as it's the range that's saying it, um, then they we, you know, we're not gonna go and tell them otherwise. So um your best bet is, you know, is to ask what's why what's the reason? Is this an insurance problem or you know, or what? And or how do I become a range member? Do you know don't just throw you know smalltop cocktails at them and say that they suck. You know, find out what the real problem is and and if there's a way that you can get around, you know, work your way through the process and get through it. So that's a good thing to remember.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah, I got a question this week um from a former student, you know, saying, okay, the one range requires, you know, certified ROs, at least one on each squad to wear a red vest during the matches. He was like, Well, isn't it as filing USPSA rules? I'm like, well, if that's the range facility rule. Yeah. And you gotta follow that, then you'd just be better off, you know, following it and at least, you know, ask if you could take it off when you're shooting. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Well, doesn't the WAC have their ROs wearing like they have red hats. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes, you know, the ranges require that because they want to know there's an RO there and this and that, and that's great. He then followed up with a question about whether we had a rule about wearing shirts. I was like, that's the MD's call. But you know, so sometimes there's things that the ranges require and like Kevin said, you want to keep having matches there. Yeah. The price of the price of having matches there. But as long as they're not saying, you know, adding these DQ rules or something like that. Now we've in the past we've had things where the range is your muzzle can't go above the berm and stuff. Um, but we've said that you can't be DQ from the match, but the range leadership could ask you to leave. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yeah. And that's, you know, then you know, we have ranges that require closed-toed shoes, not sandals or flip-flops. We have um, you know, ranges that require have to have something on your feet, you know. We um there's there's lots of that stuff out there. Um, you know, and it's they're doing it for their reasons, um, and their reasons are good reasons. So, you know, be a good, you know, be a good uh customer and abide by their rules, and everybody gets along and everybody gets to go home at the end of the day. Yeah. Okay.

SIG Carry Comp Is Still A Comp

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Um the good old SIG Carrie Comp and Ilk, it's ilk, um, keep popping up, and we've had even more questions about those. Um maybe we should describe what that is for people who don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah, so SIG. So just to preface this, uh year or two ago, Phil Strader sent me this, and he's like, hey, this is a new thing, and I want to, you know, is it gonna be legal for production for production carry optics? Whatever. I was like, no. So it's a compensator that's built into the slide, right? So there's two ports on it, and it it's fitted, uh, the piece comes down over the barrel and it's designed to divert gases. Um, it looks like a compensator, it just it just reciprocates with the slide, right? Um so instead of being a fixed piece on a screw to the end of the muzzle, it it is, you know, at the end of the muzzle. And uh, I told him no, right? So we've always said that that is not legal for production or cary optics. It's only legal and open. It's a compensated gun. And SIG's marketing material describes it as a compensator, even though uh what was what was the first terms that they tried to use?

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Expansion chamber.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

An expansion chamber or you know something like that, yeah. A gas diverter or something like that. Um so evidently at at a recent steel challenge match, a competitor was moved from karayoptics to open because he was shooting one of these guns. And his main argument was that it was slide porting, which the rule book says is allowed, right? Which are slide porting is typically holes or or cuts made into the slide, either to lighten it or if the barrel is ported to let the gas come out. That's also not legal in carry optics, it's only legal and open. But if you replace it with a solid barrel, yeah, with a solid barrel, then you're fine because you're not porting any gas out to reduce recoil.

unknown 47:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

So he is his big argument was that you know it was it was a slide porting, it was not a compensator, even though the rangemas at the match showed him the information from SIG after he contacted me. The area director showed him the information from SIG after he contacted me. This fellow is a SIG employee, right? And he actually got in touch with Phil. So, you know, Phil tells him, and this is because Phil called me, and and Phil Strader says, Yeah, I tried to slip that by Twilight, but he wouldn't let me, or something to that effect, you know? Yeah, no. So anyway, that is not legal for anything but open. It is a compensator. Um, it's just like if you had a ported barrel and and holes cut in your slide. Uh, but again, like Kevin mentioned, if you have a solid barrel and you have holes cut in the slide, that's nothing. That's slide lightning. Now, in single stack, you can't make holes in the slide, obviously, but uh in a production of carry optics, you can. And a lot of those guns are cut that way, right? It's just lightning cuts to make the slide lighter. So anyway, he finally um, you know, very uh I think he was a little hot at first, but I think he he calmed down and then he read some more and understood and and said, Yeah, you're right. I understand what it is now, et cetera. So uh, but I think IDPA allows it in some of their divisions other than open. Um and I think maybe some of the other disciplines allow it, some of the other shooting sports allow it, but we don't. So it's it's the the carry comp, the expansion chamber, the the whatever they call it. And I mean, you want to put one on your carry gun, knock yourself out. You just can't compete in anything but open with it, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:14

And I think there's some other manufacturers who now sell nine millimeter, you know, non-major guns, yeah, nine minor that have compensators and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 49:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Um, and for all of them, you can only shoot them in open. Um, I mean, um if the report to the membership, that question was brought up.

SPEAKER_04 49:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Um, you know, the future there may be a division, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

I don't know, but it's gonna take time. One of the arguments that that people use is well, it really doesn't do anything. I don't know. Then why do you want to use it?

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Then why are they making the guns?

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Why is it there?

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

It ain't for printing.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Yeah. If if you were to get a suppressor length barrel, um you know, that adds that extra three-quarters of an inch or whatever you need, um, that would blank off that, you know, those ports, then that would be that would be legal. Yeah. Um but it's gonna have to be the whole, you know, go the whole length of whatever that cutout is. I've I've never had one in my hands, and I've only seen pictures I so I don't really have a a good concept of how what kind of distance we're talking, but you know, probably a suppressor length barrel would be long enough to take care of this situation.

SPEAKER_04 50:37

Whether it'll cycle with that, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

I just guess that's I mean, you know, uh I've never seen one of those slides. It's like if I don't know if there's if how it would work. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

I mean it's or just go shoot uh nine uh minor in open. I mean, I got my initial classification in it.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Well, you know, there have been people over the years that have shot uh my nine minor in open division with open guns and have done very well with it. Yeah, so it's you know, with especially some of the modern powders where you can actually develop enough gas to make the comp do a little something. Um, you know, that's it's not necessarily a bad way to go. But you know, people have tried. I think first person I know that tried it was Matt Burquette, probably 2010, 2011-ish time frame. And you know, it didn't really work the way he was hoping it would work, but he didn't exactly end finish at the bottom of the pack either.

SPEAKER_05 51:47

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Well, before we had carry optics and limited optics, a lot of people were just shooting slide-mounted optics and open because that was the only place they could shoot them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Well, we did have a division at one time called Modified that was limited to the size of the gun, limited the size of the compensator. You could have a an optic on it. Um, it was the same as the as the IPSC division modified, but neither one of them lasted very long because I mean what it was kind of what was the point, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Well, and those damn popple holes were brutal.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Yeah. And I mean, we're not into stifling innovation in any way, but we do have a a pretty you know constant set of rules that we need to follow. And until something changes there, then that's not gonna be legal in anything but open.

SPEAKER_05 52:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

But I think it's funny when you know, I mean, if you think about Steel Challenge, the open division and handgun division and steel challenge, I guarantee you nobody's shooting major. Oh no. Yeah, right, and they're shooting a compensated full-board open gun, but you know, that comp does work. It's just like, you know, you can't claim that it's not doing anything because otherwise, why is it on a gun?

SPEAKER_02 53:01

You know, counterweight.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Well, yeah, I'm one of those weird people when I'm shooting open, I am shooting my major loads because that's where that's where the gun works. And I, you know, way back when when I used to shoot a lot of Steel Challenge, um, I played the game of downloading and changing out springs between matches, and it was screwing up with my timing, and my scores were going the wrong direction. So I just went went back to major loads in limited and in open, and my timing didn't get screwed up, and my my scores, you know, got better. So it's it's different for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Well, back in the 90s when they came out with the 9x25, that was, I mean, massively fireball chunk, you know, it was just like scoop it full of powder and damn a bullet on top. I mean, the object was that they had flames in the comps, and they they would burn a comp out in a thousand rounds. Yep. Jesus. It didn't last very long, but the people that shot it claimed that they actually had to pull the muzzle back up. So I'm like, I don't know. I never fired one because I mean I stood behind them and didn't enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

But yeah. No, I had a well-known competitor who shot one for a couple of years tell me that he's pretty sure the reason he had elbow trouble was because of that. Oh cartridge. Yeah. That was that was massive. Yeah, it's I mean it's if if you're trying to envision it, take a 223 cartridge, cut it off six millimeters longer than nine millimeter, and scoop it a full of powder, jam a bullet in the front of it. That that was a 2x25.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Sneck it down a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Yeah, it was damn. But yeah. Oh, fun times. Yeah. And everybody thinks, oh, we don't have any innovation. It's like, you know, how many people, uh, what was that crazy round where they uh was where they necked a 45 down to 40. And uh I don't remember the name of that one now, but that turned out to actually be dangerous. So yeah, the manufacturer withdrew that, withdrew that one. Um, you know, 357 SIG is a 10 millimeter case, necked down to nine. You know, that's there's been lots of innovation over the years. Um 357 SIG wasn't innovated for the sport, it was innovated for self-protection by Sig, oddly enough. Um what? Yeah. Law enforcement too. Yeah, at one point in time, that's what the air marshals were rumored to be carrying, but I don't know if that's still true or not.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

So you can punch a good hole in that pressurized feed.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

No, no, they had to use they use frangible bullets, those things will dissolve.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yeah, but those damn things are loud. So not only is everybody deaf, but they're double deaf. So anyway, I hope I'm never on a gun with on an airplane when somebody fires a gun. That just doesn't sound like a good a good time.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

Well, then if they make a hole No, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Yeah, if they make a hole, then Then there's no other noise.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

Yeah.

unknown 56:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah. Or you can just fly a Boeing 737 and one of the doors will make a hole. So, you know, whatever you want to do. That's why you can sit in the back of the plane. Or the front.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

I had to sit in the room.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Don't sit on the exit row.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Well, I had to sit in the very back of one of the flights from Pullman to Seattle because my seat I was supposed to be in broke. I don't know. Anyways, at the very, very back. Yeah, I cannot sit in the back of the plane because I have got it was rough flight. I was not ready to puke by the time we landed.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Yeah, that's not the that is not the place to be on the roller coaster.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

I never sit in the back coaster. Like parallel to the engine, so if a sector comes apart, it kills me quick.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Well, I think Mythbusters show that if you're sitting in uh what you want to be right around the wings because if you're sitting in the very front of the plane, that's the part that rips off. Yeah, crash.

unknown 57:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Yeah. Yeah, I just I want to be dead before we start the detection.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

It's it's not gonna fly very long if the front rips off, regardless of where you sit.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Yeah, but if you're at 36,000 feet, it takes a while to fall. I know, right? You you got too damn long to think of it. Yeah. All right, moving

Category Checks And ID Verification

SPEAKER_01 57:37

on. Um, we've also gotten questions, and I I've gotten this question, I think, at every class I've taught this year, um, in one form or another. But in terms of checking category, category verification, whatever you want to call it, is per appendix A2, where is that done? How is that done? Um you know, that's and this this includes um all of the various categories, you know, uh law enforcement, um, senior, super senior, um junior ladies, juniors, if you can just steal challenge, we have even more um, you know, of the younger categories for the younger folks, um, distinguished senior. Um, you know, so that's where, you know, who's responsible for doing that check? How's it done? And, you know, if people don't want to have to go through that hassle, what's their option? So if matches don't want to do that, yeah. What's their writing?

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Well, if they don't want to do it, I mean, we're obviously not there to make them do it. The rule book says that they should that they should, I think. Uh, but if you are gonna do it, you need to do it when people come and and sign in, right? Yeah. And they check in. So it's the rule book's pretty clear. I'm not gonna go get into all the details because there's a couple of controversial things there. But if if say if I claimed um, I'm not there yet, but let's say I claim distinguished senior, um I'm told very often that I don't look as old as I look, so somebody might question that, right? I look as old as I am. Uh and so somebody might question that. So they have every right to check your ID for a birth date or whatever, and and then put you in the right category. Um, you know, if you got to check a birth certificate, there's states that allow you to modify your birth certificate, but I think the date on that birth certificate is different because that's the date it was modified. I'm not positive. So there's ways to tell about stuff like that. Um, you know, it's like some people say they don't care. Oh, this guy's he claimed law enforcement, but he's not really full-time law enforcement or whatever. But I guarantee you the full-time law enforcement guys care. Yeah. So we'll customer you're gonna be protecting, you know.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

Yeah, especially if that guy who's not full-time law enforcement comes and wins. Right. Well, law enforcement, I think it says maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

With arrest powers. Yeah, it's you know, we've we've had at matches, you know, we've had security guards show up and they've got a badge and they say, Well, I'm law enforcement. Yeah, you're Paul Mart bull mall cop, dude. Um no. Paul Port.

unknown 1:00:24

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

So yeah, so not that there's anything wrong with being a mall cop.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a mall cop, it's just you're not law enforcement with arrest powers. You technically don't qualify for the category, yeah. Yeah, you know, and and even in in some states, so prison guards in some states have arrest powers, and so they qualify, but in other states they don't have arrest powers, they don't qualify, and so that's that's that is the standard that was written by no one on this call. Um, it was written a long time ago. Um, so and a few rule books ago, they decided to take uh law enforcement and military out of the categories, and the hue and cry was such that they put them back. Um so um, you know, that's it's for those people that do qualify for those. Um, that's you know, they do want to have them. We hear all the time, well, you know, but retired law enforcement or retired military should be able to claim that. Well, not necessarily, you know, and that means we've set the the USPSA, the board over time has set the qualifications for those categories. That is what they are. And as match officials, that's what we have to adhere to. If you want to change it, your avenue is to take it to the board and you know, try and work towards change. It's don't be yelling at the local match staff. That's they're just enforcing the rules.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

Right. It's I mean, uh the rule book allows them to check your ID, check your credentials, do whatever. I mean, it's like going into a bar and getting your ID checked and you get mad about it, right? Yeah. I mean, the only thing that that bothers me about getting my ID checked is is when they comment, oh, it says 19, I don't have to look any more than that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

You're still last century.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

I know, right? It's from the 1900s.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Yeah. Well, and you know, we're from the Torah and I are from the mid-1900s. And not the late 1900s. Yeah, one of my uh student employees used the oh, you're from the the late 1900s thing on me the other day. I said, let me correct you on that. I'm from the mid-1900s.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Um so yeah, so I mean, if they check, they check, right? Yeah, if you qualify for what you're claiming, no harm, no foul. If you don't, they should put you in the right category or something if it's age-related or whatever. But I mean, uh, it's just a fact of life and a fact of competing, as long as we have categories. Now, the alternate is that some matches have elected not to recognize any categories at all. Yep. Right. So that solves that whole problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

Yeah, they don't have to recognize categories.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

No, and just because you're a senior or a super senior or whatever, you don't have to claim that category. You can you can just compete, you know, straight up with everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

If you're young at heart, yeah, you don't have to be in the senior category.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Yeah, can I can I check the box for how I feel that day? What comes after distinguished senior um dead?

unknown 1:03:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

Weekend at Bernie's Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Just have a bunch of people carry you around from stage to stage. So yeah, all right. Enough of that silliness. Um then we got we keep getting this question, so let's talk

PCC Tables And Flag Do’s

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

about it. Um, you know, PCC tables, people get all confused and flustered. Can you stay? Can you leave your PCC laying on the PCC table? Can't do you have is it only for bagging and unbagging? Can you unbag your handgun there or not? Um, you know, so let's just go through what is the PCC table, what's its purpose, um, how can you and how can't you use it? Um, and try and help people understand.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

Well, first I want to remind people that PCC is not a crime. Right. At least not yet listening to George. Hey, you should send steel challenges, not USPSA. Um so PCC, it's supposed to be for bagging, unbagging. You know, if your range is fortunate enough to have a big enough table and there's only a couple PCC shooters, usually there's no issue with you leaving your bag PCC there until you're ready to use it. That's what it's for.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

Um if there's a lot of PCC shooters and there's not a lot of room, like this happens at multigun matches a lot for the like rifle staging tables or shotgun, there's just not a lot of room. Then it's kind of a jerk move to go throw your whole bag up there and just leave it there while people are trying to actually use the table.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

A lot of times they have racks right next to them. So you unbag it, rack it, um, and then retrieve it when it's your turn.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

Right. But for PCCs, it's there, it's supposed to help you facilitate bagging and unbagging there against the berm versus having to do it in the line. Um now it used to be for only bagging and unbagging, but we have relaxed what you can do there now. Um what you can't do is insert a chamber flag or do repairs. But you can now turn your dot on and off, put your dot cover on. Um, you know, if you need To do like adjustment of your dot tools, you're probably not going to be doing you should do that at the safety area, not the staging area.

unknown 1:06:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

You can check if your dots on at the staging or the bagging and bagging area.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Um by changing batteries, you need to go to the safety table for that. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

If you want to, you know, practice mounting shoulder it to the shoulder. I think I think we said you have to go to the safety area for that, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Yeah, because you're manipulating right.

unknown 1:06:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

So yeah, you can bag it or unbag it. You can, like Jody said, check your dock. That was where people were running into problems because they were looking at the dot and getting DQ'd for it. And I mean, that's kind of silly. So that rule got changed. Um, but you can't dry fire it, you can't put a flag in. Um, if your flag pops out, like when you drag it out of your case or out of your scabbard, and the flag wasn't in there right, and it comes out, you just you just have to stop telling it's like dropping your gun. You tell him, oh, oh, hey, my flag came out, and he will come and supervise, make sure your gun is clear. As long as he's supervising you doing that in the in the PCC staging area or or at the table, that's fine. Um, but you can't just do it unsupervised. And you can't unbag your handgun there. That's not what it's for. Handgun unbagging is only in a safe area.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

And no ammo handling.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

And no ammo handling.

unknown 1:07:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:23

It's just a safety thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:25

At the safe area.

unknown 1:07:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

Yeah. You can grab loaded mags out of your PCC case at the bagging unbagging area.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:34

Right.

unknown 1:07:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

But okay. Um, and then also more in the realm of PCC, but we also see them in some of the rim fire um rifles. Um, I don't know that I've ever seen one of these for a handgun, but I bet they exist. Um, these big oversized magazines that tend to stick out below the magwell tend to be bright colors, and they have an intrusion into the chamber, you know, into the uh upper such that it keeps the bolt from traveling forward. They sell them as you know safety devices. Um they're not really chamber flags because they go into the chamber, but we get questions quite a bit about if those are legit or do they have to use something that goes into the chamber.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

Right. They're legit. Um basically everything that we do with PCC is is a bolt hold open device, so to speak. Uh, there's a lot of other so-called chamber flags that don't penetrate into the chamber. Um uh Sterling White's uh stuff, the plugger series, they all they all just hold your bolt open, which is which is what we're looking for, right? We want to make sure that gun can't fire. So that they first started being used. They they can be 3D printed, they can be roto-molded or however they make the polymer, and they're usually bright orange or bright yellow, you know, like the same orangey yellow you see on uh highway workers. Yep. Uh so they're very visible, they're holding the bolt open. You can see that color inside the, you know, inside the with the bolt held back inside the pre-chamber of the gun there. So um they are legal to use like that. Uh I think the person that wrote said that they showed that you could slip a round in there. Well, yeah, you can, but I mean, the object is that that gun was cleared on the stage. If you if you come up there and and take that out and there's a round in the chamber, you're you're disqualified, right? But um I I think most people make sure that their gun is empty and they put that back back in it and it's being held open, right? And then of course it's not gonna drag out when you take it out of your bag if it's latched in there properly. And it's also gonna be uh something that you have to physically remove at the make ready command. You can't take it out before then. So, you know, I mean it's it's pretty much the same thing as uh all of my all of my chamber flags are or the plugger variety, and they're just that piece of Delrinner nylon, and it goes in there and holds the bolt up.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

Some people prefer to stick something down the barrel. Uh the that nine millimeter PCC is not gonna get hot enough to melt that, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

No, but a 223 will.

unknown 1:10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Yeah. Yeah. 223 or 308, you're shooting a lot of it, yeah, that's gonna be hot. And you know, you may not want to stick it down there. The other thing is those things are are the NRA style, right? And by the way, I have a pile of those, and I'm gonna start bringing them to PCC matches and stuff and handing them out. Um uh if you slam that bolt shut, especially on a center fire rifle, you will probably chop it off. Yep. Yeah, it's gonna be stuck in your chamber.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

Oh, my my sister-in-law was shooting PCC and on one of the stages, she pulled her chamber flag out and she kind of looked at it and then she put it in her pocket. And then when she shot her first target, there was like bullet holes in this weird-looking hole. Yeah, the chamber flag had broken off in the chamber and uh was pushed out by the bullets.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

I'm surprised it flew that far and had enough energy to penetrate the target. The target was pretty close.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:30

But still, we were like, what the hell? So yeah, if they break out, uh if you take off your out your camera flag and it's not as long as it used to be, you might want to check a barrel.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

And if you're exceedingly cheap, Orange Line term is, you know, weedier's term works really well. And you can get a lifetime supply for a few bucks at Home Depot.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

So get the heavy one.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Yeah, get the heavy stuff and do not stick that in your board. That that stuff will and some of it actually has some abrasive material in it. Um, you don't want that so that it cuts the weeds better. Um, you don't want that down in your chamber. So um, but yeah, I've I've seen a lot of people that over the years that have used that. So yep. Okay. Um here we go.

Designing Movers Without Fake Targets

SPEAKER_01 1:12:25

Here's a this is a this is a good one. This is a longer question, but it's worth reading the whole thing. Uh gentleman wrote in I designed stages for our local matches. One of my favorite props is a trolley, but I'm running out of ways to use it because of its limitations. It does not consistently stop in the same position, so I always use it as a disappearing target. I set it up to stop behind a mass of barrels as a disappear, mass of barrels. As a disappearing target, not all of the shooters attempt it. To me, that is disappointing, so I am looking for a way to encourage them to shoot the moving target. My question is: can I set up a separate static target and require the shooter to shoot either the moving, disappearing target on the trolley or the static target? The static target would be identified with red target sticks and would be set up such that the static target is not convenient and would only be taken if special effort was made. Call it a time waster. I suppose the case could arise where the shooter would shoot both targets. How would this be scored? Uh Troy, I think you had that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

Yeah, so it's not legal to do that. Um, what you can do is set up a secondary or an additional shooting position. And uh Sherwood Greenfield used to do this a lot at area three with a drop turner. And if you didn't get it on a drop, it didn't disappear because you could run downrange and shoot it in its set position, right? Yeah, the way of the way you do the same thing, right? You could do the same thing with this, which would encourage people to try to take your mover on a move. Right. And then if they don't get it, uh they want to waste the time, which is kind of what the mention was, to run around and shoot at it, that's fine. But you can't you can't set up a target and say this represents that, right? A target is a target. So it's and if they shoot it, how you know how would it be scored? That's the question. How would you score it? Okay, you've got an additional target on that stage, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Yeah, yeah. It's just a mess.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

Yeah, that's the main thing. So you don't want to do that. Um, I mean, uh, okay, I just got back from the IPSC Canadian Nationals, right? Right. So the way that they I had a trolley on my stage, and the way that they made it non-disappearing was there were two uh sideways opening doors at the end that it finished behind, and if you didn't get it on the move, you could go yank the doors open and shoot it. That's a fairly elegant solution, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:48

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

Um, some people never shot it on the move and just planned to run up there and be waiting on it when it when it banged to a stop, and that worked out okay. And some of them shot it on the move. Um, they kind of like anything else, they kind of figured out that if you ran forward as it was tripped and then caught it, you you have more uh space, right? It increased your angle on the targets so they had more space and time to shoot it. But there were several solutions to that problem. So I mean that that would be my solution or suggestion to this guy is you know, put a put a hatch, put a port, put something you can push open with your gun and and shoot it, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

So then it doesn't disappear because you can always physically expose it. And that's another thing that Sherwin would do. He'd he'd set something up, he'd pull a rope and it would drop something on the targets that you that you thought had disappeared or sitting right there, right? But it did take additional time. So it encourages you to shoot that moving target on the move.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

Yeah, that's kind of one of the problems with disappearing targets, and that's why we always tell people if you're using things like drop turns, you know, don't just stick it there by itself. Give people something else to shoot at while they're waiting for it to appear. Because some drop turners are so slow. If people do not want to stand there and wait for them to activate and appear, they would just, it's you know, they're not gonna stay there to shoot at it because it's a disappearing target. So give them something else to shoot at, they're like more likely to take a shot at the disappearing target.

unknown 1:16:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

So anyway, there you go. Let's see. All right, we already did that one.

Disability Accommodation For Strong Hand Stages

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

Um had a gentleman write a very long uh email complete with pictures and highly detailed. Yeah, high detailed anatomy drawings and all sorts of stuff. Um, and uh to you know, basically asking, you know, he has he has a disability to where he cannot safely hold a handgun we-handed in. So Try, why don't you take it from there?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

Yeah, so he was asking for a well, I guess a blanket dispensation that, you know, some document that he could show everybody that said that I said it was okay for him to shoot weekend stages with a strong hand, and that's permitted in the rules, right? Um, he quoted all the right rules. I think his main problem was that he's running into some local ROs that may or may not either are actually certified ROs or they missed that part in the class or something that says that if you have a disability, if you don't have the use of a hand, you can in a strong hand weekend stage, if you don't have your weekend and you can't use it, then you can shoot stronghand on the weekend portion without penalty. Uh, we were talking about that at lunch today. And the key word is you have to kind of tell them, I have a disability, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Um, it it doesn't work when you when you're trying to do something, say, well, I sprained my shoulder last week and uh it's not comfortable. That's that's not gonna fly, right? Right. You have to be physically disabled in some way to to avoid that penalty. But that's the words that need to come out of your mouth, right? Is I have a disability, right? Yeah. Um I also recommended that he that he take a picture of the rule, print it out, do whatever. And when he gets to the range, talk to the RM or the master or whoever's in charge that day and say, hey, this is my problem. Do you have any weekend stages? And if the answer is no, then you're good to go. If the answer is yes, then you say, Well, I I have this disability and I can't shoot stronghands, so I'm gonna weaken, so I'm gonna have to shoot stronghand. And then they should, if they're doing the right thing, take care of that, right? Right. Um I mean, I uh I don't I don't really know what to tell him, but we don't issue uh blanket, you know, dispensation documents for stuff like that. Even though his his problem was very well documented in the email he sent, and I mean I I'm kind of like you, Kevin. I feel bad for him because that was a medical misadventure for one thing. And uh, you know, he uh may never get get the use of that hand back like he wants it to, but it's unsafe to make him try to do that, right? So you gotta just follow the rules. If he has a disability and cannot use that hand, and I mean if you want to have him prove it to you, then with an unloaded gun, maybe in a safe area, he could show you that he can't hold a gun up with it. Um if you're that hard-headed about it. But most people aren't gonna lie to you about that, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:41

Yeah, uh well, and from the pictures that he included, just looking at it, I could tell he couldn't hold a hand yet with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

Yeah, you know, that's his that was um, you know, that that's very it's a very unfortunate event, but uh that's you know that there was a a guy down in South Louisiana I used to shoot with that had polio and his his left hand was just nothing, right? I mean it was a floppy little appendage, and he couldn't do anything with it, but man, he was a heck of a strong hand shooter. I'll bet and uh but in order to reload, he had special holders that he could, you know, slip on the gun vertically and then he'd seat it on his leg because he couldn't he couldn't even seat it with that hand. Um uh and I that was an obvious thing too. So this fellow's pictures, I I mean, if I I looked at it, I was like, I bet you can't see we can, uh pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

Yeah. Yeah, we used to have a gentleman from Canada that shot down here in the Pacific Northwest a lot. And his his left his left hand was nothing. It was, you know, just he had a sling and strapped it to his chest, basically. And yeah, he had uh special mag holders built on his belt so he could just slam the gun down on the mags. And he was very proficient at you know racking the slide by hooking the rear side on his belt. Uh he was very proficient at clearing the gun by holding it between his ankles. Um, behind his knee. Or behind his knee. That's it, yeah. And uh, you know, he was and when he always knew he was at a match because he showed up and goes, I need to talk to the RM. And he because he wanted to he wanted to demonstrate to you that he was safe. And after a while, he got to know all of us and we got to know him. And he's I want to see the RM. He says, Oh, I know you. Am I good? Yeah, you're good. Um, you know, so that was that, you know, it was easy to and in fact, I think his picture is even in the level one seminars. It is.

unknown 1:21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:47

On this on the slide about the special penalty.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

Yeah, oddly enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:51

I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:51

So yeah. All right, let's

Franken Guns And Division Legality

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

see. Um, oh, the Franken Sig. Um had a gentleman ride in, he'd taken his fire control unit out of the uh P365 and using aftermarket parts built another gun with it and uh wanted to know if it was legal. For carry optics. For carry optics, so or production was too. Yeah, I think it was carry optics. So Troy, what what did you tell the nice gentleman?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

I told him it it wasn't legal because we he could claim it was a SIG P320 or 365, but we're not taking them down to the fire control unit to check, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:39

Um, if you put uh an aftermarket slide and an aftermarket grip on it or grip module or whatever they call it, it doesn't say SIG anywhere, right? Right. Yeah, um it doesn't resemble it. Right. So it was the same issue with um the Beretta. No, well Beretta, yeah. Uh people were changing parts on those, but um oh, I have I have one. They finally made a whole gun.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:12

It was the Glock clone that oh um I know which one you're talking about, but I'm blanking on the name.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

Me too.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:25

Well there there was well, there was the P P80s or the P80, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:30

That was it. Yeah, so they finally came out with a whole gun and that was approved, but you know, people were in the polymerities, peep the frames or the slides or whatever, and that wasn't legal, right? Yeah, so you can't just build a a Franken gun with uh a SIG fire control unit in it and call it a SIG for production or carry optics. I mean, you could certainly do it for limited or opener or whatever, but uh limited optics it would work, but it's the the problem is we can't tell.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:02

We can't tell whose gun that is, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:05

Right. Yeah, well, and we're having to take your word for what model is, and we don't know that that's really the model that was approved.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:18

Well, I mean, the but that's kind of the problem with karaopters in production now because people can put aftermarket slides where usually that's the where the gun model is, right? Um and then like zigzags in particular with the modular grips you can maybe you can you can change all the parts and have a completely different gun.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:42

Yeah. So yeah, because you I just looking on my LO now. Yeah, I was looking on my 365 and the the the marking is only on the slide. There's not there's the sig and the serial number and all that stuff down on the on the grit module, but not yeah, um it's not which is probably on the FCU, not actually on the grit module, but yeah, uh like locks have a little lock on the side of the grit, but if uh you've put like grit, you know, epoxy and grit uh grit on it, you're not gonna see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:15

Right. Then the fruit of this fly is the only other place it says glock.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

Yeah, so yeah, just keep that in mind as you're if you're gonna do that, just plan on going to going shooting an LO. Because the all those all those restrictions don't apply in limited optics. And you know, and who knows, we we may see the great merge uh between periotics and limited optics occur. Um and uh I think that's that's still on the table. It's not anything coming real soon. We talked about it, it was discussed, I believe, at the members' members meeting. Uh report to the membership. A report to the membership, yeah. Um, so that's you know, that's being discussed, but there's that is not an easy path either. Um because there's dissension about what what to do and how to do it. So yeah, fun times. Um,

AI Can’t Take Your RO Test

SPEAKER_01 1:26:15

all right. The last thing I had on the list here was um people using um AI, artificial intelligence, to uh take their RO exams. And um we've over the past year, I've gotten the number of students that have emailed me, you know, proof that they got out of some AI that the answer that we had or that we had on a question on the RO test was incorrect. And in every single case, um they were believing the AI, not believing what the rule book said. And you know, one thing to know about AI is that at least all the popular versions like ChatGPT and um and yeah, all all the various ones, they're basically set up to make you happy with the answer that they give you. Um they are going to try and please you. Um, that's what there is kind of behind the makeup there.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:19

Um I mean the machines can't take over the world unless they they convince us that we're friendly.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:25

Yeah, yeah. So um so you know, it's going it is going to, when it can, it is going to find justification for um making you happy. And in the inst one of the instances that a student sent me, the site this reference that was cited was a Reddit threat. That's not the rule book. And you know, um I've also been a little fearful of folks saying, you know, because if you aren't specific about what rule book to use. It could find any of the rule books that are out online and you answer your question. Well, the rules have changed every once in a while since you know in the intervening time. What I always tell classes is the rule, the rules test at the end of an RO class is open book. It is not open neighbor, it is not open family member, it is not open AI. It's you need to be in the book looking stuff up. Out on the range, you may not have AI. We have a lot of ranges where there is no connectivity. And I'm not aware of any large language models that run reasonably on a phone. Um, they're probably coming, but they're not there yet. And well, good.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:45

So I mean the thing is everyone is all about AI right now, right? Yeah. But for AI to especially for something like interpreting a rule book, it needs extensive training. Right. So Rick did spin up a rule bot, a USPSA hosted rules bot for like a weekend. And it was fun. I had I had several rules conversations with it. Um, it told me it had a zero hallucination tolerance policy where it couldn't make up information. And it was just said the rule book, the rule book only. Yeah, I caught it several times telling me false things or things it made up from just the rule book. And, you know, I would call it out and be like, what do you mean they're four? I asked it how many scoring methods are there in USPSA, and it told me four. And I was like, well, that's funny because there's only three. Um, it also told me the B zone used to be between the A and C zones in the torso of our targets.

unknown 1:29:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:46

You know, so it told me a lot of things. And I was kind of like, okay, we we'd have to, if we put this out for the members, it'd have to have a huge disclaimer that it's gonna probably give you wrong answers.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:57

Um, and it's only gonna get better if like we do some extensive training and we opted to not go that route, right? Um, I do understand why AI probably has a hard time interpreting our rule book. So if it was like a single easy question where it was supported by a single rule, it did fine. But if it was something like about if this gun qualifies for a division or whatnot, and it had to assimilate several pieces of rules together, it failed horribly. And, you know, yeah, we could probably reformat the rule book and make it more AI friendly.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:31

Um I'd be inclined to go the other direction, but that just me.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:35

Well, but then we have to reprogram all the ROs on where to find the rules, which I think that's gonna be a harder it'll look like. Um so you know, just be used, you know, everyone's going all in on AI right now, like all the granting agencies for research or AI everything.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:54

Um, I really think AI is gonna be like in five years, people are gonna realize, oh my God, AI has dumbed us down, or AI actually gives us wrong information. I saw an article today about how uh a homeowner asked AI what he should spray on his lawn to kill his weeds, and it gave him a chemical and he went and bought it. Yeah, it was the kind of chemical that kills the lawn and the weeds.

unknown 1:31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:15

Well, but he got rid of the weeds.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:18

Yeah. Um, so it was there. But anyway, you know, still, you know, AI trust but verify is my kind of policy with AI, right? Um if it gives you a rule, still go look at the read the rule. Don't just use the number. Yeah. Um I just use caution. That's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:42

You know, AI has its place, don't get me wrong. I am not anti-AI. I use it every day. Um, for things like boiling down really large data sets and making summaries of incredibly long policies and other sorted documents, it's fabulous. And yeah, um, you know, it we we were having a problem with uh with a roster the other day, and I fed it the master list and I fed it the roster, and I said, find all the problems with you know name misspellings and anybody missing from one to the other. And it 23 seconds later, I had all that information, which if I had done that by hand would have been probably a couple hours of work. Um, so it's it's very useful. But I I am not anti-I AI. I I I am not. Um I yeah, there's it's some really interesting hallucinations that it has once in a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:39

It has its uses. I mean you can make cool pictures with it, and you can tell uh uh you know what's the Google map thing? You can tell it plan a route between here and there. I was in a lot when John and I were riding this summer.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:54

And so it was great, right? I mean, it's you could tell it avoid all the major highways, and man, it'll put you on some back roads, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:03

Um I wish it had a no-dirt roads setting.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:07

Yeah, it don't. And that's not great on a motorcycle because it was like turn right, and we're like, uh uh.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:14

Well, they say all dirt roads lead to Pullman. And yeah, Google Maps is like, go down this road. And I'm like, no, yeah, I'm not sure where that's gonna bring me out.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:25

Right, but you shouldn't be using it for your tests because the test, like like Kevin said, is to test your ability to research the rules, your ability to answer the questions. It's not, you know, AI. And to be honest, it's not that intelligent when it comes to the rules and stuff, right? Yeah, uh, and it's you know, it's basically I don't mind if you're if you're talking to your buddy about you got stuck on a question or something, you know. But it's even if it is open book, it's not open AI, and that's it's kind of like cheating, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:59

So all the kids are using AI nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:03

Well, yeah, that's if people start having to shoot their toaster, that's gonna be a problem.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:12

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:14

Yeah, it's like that that meme, you know, is talking about what was it, uh something about like Transformers, the autobox or something. Yeah, I laughed, my wife laughed, the toaster toaster. Yeah, right. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:36

But I mean, if you got if you got a fridge that checks your food and orders for you, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:40

Yeah. Yeah. Uh I don't, but that's how Skynet started.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:45

I know. That's why I say all the you know, all the science fiction novels were they gave AI, you know, control of everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:53

They always end badly. Open the door, Hal.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:58

What are you doing, Dave? Oh, what was that Tom Crew? Oh, minority report. Um, you know, Philip Philip K. Dick was a visionary. Um he wrote that and uh Blade Runner, and he was a freaking visionary, and you go, okay, yeah, well, whatever. No, he wrote those in the 50s, yeah, before any of this technology really existed. So he was he was a visionary. I I I suspect he was actually either a time traveler or aliens abducted him and gave him information, but you know, I mean, uh Battlestar Galactica, silence, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:37

They rebelled. So the Borg, yes, yes, the Borg.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:42

Yeah, no, yeah, we we we can go on endlessly, so yeah. Um, but yeah, iRobot. Yeah, yeah. Just just be careful out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:52

So anyway, um, you know, use AI responsibly. That's the short, the short summary of this.

unknown 1:35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:59

You know, we don't make you take a 50 question test after the RO class to be mean to you or to beat on you. The actual real purpose of that is to get you into the rule book, looking stuff up and learning where it is and how to look stuff up. That's the whole that's really the point.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:16

And you know to reinforce what you were taught in class.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:19

Yes, and be able to find the rule, interpret the rule, apply the rule, and answer the question correctly. Um, that's that is a functional necessity as an RO. If you know, so that's it's it's not just to be mean or somebody told us we had to give you a test. That's not what it's about.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:40

So oh, and also um if you fail your exam and you try to sweep talk your instructor just passing you and you didn't earn it, that's not gonna happen either.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:50

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:53

Just you know if you include wink link in an email to me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:57

No, I know every oddly enough, nobody does that to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:02

Every test question tells you how to input the rules, right? Every every question and it's also in the lead-in to taking your exam. It explains how to how to cite the rules and it tells you how to do appendix citations, etc. I've gotten three emails this week. Um I I I dispute my answers because I put an A in front of everything and and it failed me.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:30

I'm like, yeah, because you didn't follow directions.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:34

Yeah. I think they're it should be a fail for not following directions. I did write back to one guy and said, you know, this is like the second time that you've done this. Uh yeah. We designed this test so that nobody had to actually physically grade it, right? Yeah. Um, that's the problem. It's got to be specific. And it tells you on every question how to answer it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:59

So yeah, it gives you examples of the format.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:01

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:03

Yeah, that's the number the number one reason that I find when people go, oh, I failed my task twice. Could you please take a look? And you know, and go and look, and it's like, yeah, because you did you cited the in the appendices incorrectly. That's the number one reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:20

Oh, mine is they usually don't read their uh they don't read the question right, so they choose the multiple choice guess answer wrong. Or they don't read the rule to make sure it supports the multiple choice answer they selected. Right. Yeah. That's the big thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:40

I think when they're word searching they just pick the first one that has that word in it. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:45

Whether it's correct or not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:48

Well, you know, doing a word search is an art, you have picking the right keyword to search from in the first place. Right. Yeah. You know, that's but then you have to not just take the first rule that comes up when you put that in. You've gotta you've gotta very you know validate which rule. And uh so Yeah, if you if you just word search firearm.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:14

What was the other one? There was one during one of the RM reviews. I can't remember what word it was, but someone searched it on their iPad. They're like, well, that's not the right word to search. I was sitting next to him. It was like 200 and some patches.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:24

Like target or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:26

Yeah. I was like, yeah, you want to use a different word.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:32

Yeah, it'll use that word and then part of that word.

unknown 1:39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:38

Right.

Closing Notes And Contact Info

SPEAKER_01 1:39:39

So all right, that's all we had on the list for tonight, and we made a pretty good episode out of this. So anything else from anybody else?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:49

I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:50

Well, I'm good. All right. Well, thanks everybody. As usual, you can reach out and and uh send us stuff at rules at uspsa.org. Um, if you're thinking about having classes, I if you especially if you want to get them in this year, um, this calendar year, get them in there. Get those, uh, get them up. Uh the calendar is filling, and uh we're running out of year. So I mean here we are just in the middle of August, but we we really are running out of year. Um, we're booking quite a few classes already in the 27. Um, so it's if you're thinking of having a class, um, I would go ahead and get the reservation in for a class, get an instructor assigned. And if you end up having to pull the plug and say, nope, we're not gonna make it, or let's delay this till 27, you can certainly do that. But um, if you wait too long, you're gonna start getting the we don't have anybody that can take your class, so pick another weekend. So um, so get those in there. That's all on the website. And again, you can email us at rules at uspsi.org. Thanks to you both for your time and this evening. Uh, Troy, good luck with setup. So Jody, good luck with travel getting down to uh race gun. And um we'll see you all in two weeks.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:12

All right. All right, good night. Good night.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:14

Good night.

Find Or Host An NROI Class

SPEAKER_01 1:41:15

Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NRY seminars under the NRY tab at usbsa.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRY tab at USBSA.org.