Official Disclaimer And Welcome

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and indicate. The only official rulings are published as part of the bylaws of the United States practical student association. Questions about rules can be emailed to rules at USBSA.org. This is episode 105, recorded late July 2026.

Canadian Nationals Range Report

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the NROI Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Emmel, and with me tonight, all the way from Canada, is our director, Trey McGranis. Good evening, Troy. Good evening. And our other assistant director, Jodie Healing. Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Good evening.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

So, Troy, how about a report from Canadian Nationals?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

So, this Nationals uh is being held in British Columbia in Prince George. Um, it's a really nice range. It's a Prince George, um, I don't know, I might be telling you wrong, Prince George Rifle and Pistol Club or something like that. But there's 19 stages plus chronograph, um, following the IpsyC 321 format. So they go pretty quick. But each bay has two stages on it, except for for they have one stage on their very long range. I'm talking 1400 meter uh rifle range, but the stage obviously isn't that far out. But uh so that's one, it's a single stage, and then the the other 18 are doubled up on the on the other nine bays. So um I was a little bit curious about how that was gonna work with the schedule, but I shot with the staff yesterday and today, and we picked up uh an extra bay uh yesterday because of the weather. Uh it was supposed to be raining more today. Uh, it didn't really start off rainy. It was actually clear and cool this morning, but uh midday it kind of rained on us pretty heavy, but it didn't really slow anything down. We just kept shooting. Um they're not shooting in bags, it's not really super waterproof targets, but they seem to be holding up. And you know, it worked out. They had dedicated uh ROs embedded in each squad, and uh that went really smoothly. So I'm gonna be a CRO on a on a double dump stage. Uh the the first stage has uh eight pieces of steel on it, which is you know uh basically an eight-round 40-point stage. And the other one is I think it's it's not 32 rounds, I think it's 28, something like that, but it's got a double uh target slider on it. So it should be interesting to see how people shoot that. I shot a borrowed gun with a borrowed holster and borrowed magazines and ammo, so you know, you know how that goes. But yeah, uh it worked out okay. I I didn't, I mean, I didn't I I finished the match, you know, which was kind of my goal, and uh had a couple of mics and a no-shoot or two, but you know, they used ipsy minis on a stage. That was very interesting to shoot at and uh quite a bit of no shoots on another stage, so they kind of doubled it up. But you know, when you shoot two A's on the top of a target that's covered with a no-shoot and don't think you had two A's and pick it up with a no-shoot, that's never a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

That's kind of R for the course, though.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Right, yeah, because I couldn't I couldn't really see that second hit. I wasn't sure where the dot was. Um, but I'm shooting Jim Smith's uh Q5 uh match gun, so Walther gun. Uh it's got the heavy brass grips on it, and uh of course everything here is 10 rounds. So if this was carry optics in the United States, there'd be very few reloads being made. But here, every time you move your feet, it's like shooting single stack, you got a reload because all you got is 10 rounds.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

So just like old production, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Just like old production. So you gotta plan your reloads and stuff, which is something I wasn't really used to, but I got used to it pretty quick because I had to. So you're a first time used.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

You're a reform single stack shooter, so it should have come back pretty quick.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Right. Yeah, it did come back really quick, but the first stage when you shoot the slide lock and what the heck's going on, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:01

Oh crap. I forgot to do something.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

I forgot to count.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Crap. Yeah, so just every every time you move, you reload. That's the rule.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah, that's yeah. Well, after the first stage, I figured that out. Um, but Jim Smith, who's who's the head of NROI for Canada, here is one of the range masters, and then his assistant or uh deputy NROI director, I guess, is uh Jen Eichenberg, and she's the other Rangemaster. So uh I think they've done a good job. Uh I walked stages with them prior to the start of the match, and uh they made some changes that were obvious changes, changes that we would make for anything for safety or for operability or whatever. And so far they haven't been really any any big issues. So other than the weather kind of slowing things up a little bit, the next few days are supposed to be clear, and then Friday, Saturday is supposed to uh rain pretty good. So we'll see how that works. But other than that, it's nice. I mean, it was quite a trip up here. Prince George is an eight eight-hour drive north of Vancouver. So it's uh rolling hills and and uh softwood forest, pine and spruce and and fir. So it's a really pretty part of the country. And the range is gravel. They have gravel everywhere, so it's not really muddy, it's just uh the fact that it's raining and almost everybody here is shooting a dot. So uh you know it's one of those things that you just gotta put up with the weather. But they have a preponderance of umbrellas too, so everybody would hold they'd hold an umbrella over you while you made ready and and then back off real quick when they hit the start button. So your dot didn't get too wet, which is pretty nice.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah. Yeah, it's the Canadians have have somehow managed to grab all the all the rain that we really desperately need down here, but oh well. Right. Yeah, there've been a couple pretty good little uh low pressure systems, and they've all just there's a big high pressure system sitting right over Utah, and it's shoving everything up into Canada, so which is not helping our smoke our smoke or fire situation here in the Pacific Northwest, but oh well. When you look at the fire maps, it looks like two-thirds of or the state of Oregon is on fire.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So there was a fire in BC, um, but we got smoke from it day before yesterday, I guess. But today and and uh yesterday and today there was no smoke from it.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

So I was seeing a lot of people that I've I've met, you know, in prior years working nationals for in Canada and met a met some new friends, so it's all good. Uh Amanda Fisher's here. She got promoted to CRO this year, so uh she's worked with me in the past as one of my ROs, but now she's a CRO, so you know she's on her own. But uh yeah, she kind of got a claim to fame because I think Leighton did uh part of his live stream in South Africa um and introduced her and and then commented that you know she's got quite a mouth on her, which she does, um, but you know, she's she's honest, right? So she'll she'll tell you what she thinks. She's not afraid of doing that. And then of course, the Canadians like the use of the F-word, so I'm gonna have to retrain myself when I get back to the States, and hopefully I don't say too much on this podcast. But we start, yeah, we start main match tomorrow, and um it ought to work out, it would be fun.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

All right. So wait.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

So today's Tuesday. Or Tuesday, right? So their main match goes from Wednesday through Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Wednesday through Saturday. Sunday is a shootoff and a banquet.

unknown 9:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

So it's a it's an AMPM schedule, just like uh just like we would typically run. Um, it's an hour for each bay. They they have to run it by bay to keep it straight because every bay has two stages.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

But it's an hour per bay, and most of them have you know shorts or mediums on them because of the 321 thing. Um but even the long course is not too bad. There's a 42-yard mini uh Ipsyc mini popper. That's a challenge. Um I got it on the first shot though, so I'm kind of happy, you know, about that.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

But uh so are they shooting all those days?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

So how many stages a day are they shoot or bays a day are they shooting?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Um they're gonna shoot well, one is the odd man out. So they'll shoot one uh stage. Well, they're calling it bay zero. So they'll do bay zero and then one, two, three, uh, four, right? So that'll be two, four, six, eight, nine. And then they'll shoot five, six, seven, eight, and nine, bay five, six, seven, eight, nine, the second half, or flip that, right? Wow. So they'll do that in the morning and then they'll do zero through through four in the out in the morning and then five through nine in the in the afternoon on the next day.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

So the the competitors aren't shooting all four or five days, they're only shooting two.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

They're only shooting two, so there's there's four groups.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

There's multiple flights.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah. Right, multiple flights. So how many total shooters are they running? Um you know, I don't know. They they had uh there there's gonna be some ghost squads, they said, because they didn't get as many people as they thought they would, but there's you know gonna be a couple hundred something. Uh not counting the staff that shot today.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

So okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Um any other announcements you need either of you need to make?

Updating IPSC Training And Testing

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Um, I I'd like to talk a little bit about something. I was visiting with Jim and Jennifer and talking about uh IPSC and Iroa are supposedly coming out with some new training initiatives. Uh so I've kind of kept the uh IPSC endorsement on hold because honestly, their their existing training materials are kind of uh dated. And they said that they were updating them. So I I've waited for that. But Jim and Jennifer have what seems to be an excellent program here in Canada for training IPSC ROs. So I think I'm gonna get that material from them and see if we can't benchmark some of that and uh and incorporate it into our endorsement. I think it'll be a lot faster than waiting on IROA to update whatever they're gonna update.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

So well, not to mention we're we're not training, gonna be training ROs from scratch. No, we're just gonna be training them what's different between IpsIC and USPSA.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Right. But there were some considerations that uh both uh Dino Evangelinos and Jose Bellino wanted to incorporate when they said that we could do it as an endorsement. And some of that was some of their critical material, obviously. And then they had the testing portion of it, et cetera. But that'll all be built into the LMS, just like we do with any other endorsement.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

So yeah, I just think we can do the testing part of it better.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Right. Uh interestingly, I was sitting next to uh we had a sort of an O get together tonight at this uh restaurant and bar, and I was sitting next to this lady, and she says, I have something uh a bone to pick with you about your test. And I said, Okay. And I'm thinking she's talking about the USPSA NROI test, right? Right. And she said, some of those questions, the the rules, I can quote the rule and then you mark it wrong. And I said, wait a minute. I said, are you talking about the USPSA thing? She goes, yeah, NROI. I said, all right, uh I'm the USPSA director. Is that what you're talking about? She's like, no, the Canadian one. I was like, oh, hey, Jim, this lady was here.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

Let me transfer you.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Right. Let me transfer you to somebody that can help you, man. So uh she kind of wore him out a little bit, but he was like, Well, yeah, we we know we're gonna work on some of that. So uh, but anyway, uh I was happy to force that off on Jim. So I was thinking, I mean, we do have Canadian ROs that are right, you know, USNROI certified. We we do reciprocate with them. Um, and I thought maybe that's what she was talking about because once they get they're granted that reciprocation, they do have to take an annual test to keep it up. Yeah, um, but no, it was it was the Canadian one, so I was happy to pass. And then Jennifer was down on the other end of the table, so she didn't hear a word of that, right? I told her when we left, I said, I saved you uh a rather lengthy conversation. She was like, Oh, thank you, thank you. She didn't know what it was about, but so I mean, you know, we all know that we get comments that our questions are tricky sometimes and everything, but I I really don't think they are. They they have some detail in them that you have to pay attention to, yeah. And need to be able to understand what that rule says, etc. But uh, you know, that's just a fact of life when you're issuing tests. Because she did ask me, she said, Who who makes those tests? This was before I introduced her to Jim. And uh I said, Well, I do, and the other instructors, we pull the questions and then we kind of vet them and talk about them and put them in there. She said, Well, you know, I don't think this is, you know, she was telling me whatn't write. Um, and then when I figured out that she was talking about Canadian RO certification, I was like, ah, this is a Jim Smith question.

SPEAKER_04 15:12

So But I mean, we do get a lot of people, like so. Like I had a student here recently who he's close to passing but hasn't passed on his three attempts, so I gave him another chance, another round of tests. Um, but I think where he's getting hung up is I told him you need to read the questions and the answers very carefully. Because there's some questions you got to read very carefully, and then there's some of the multiple choice answers, which are very similar in wording, but different. Right. Right. They have different implications. And, you know, I think he's only reading part of the question, part of the answer. And you know, that's what's tripping them up, and you need to read everything carefully.

unknown 15:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

You know, and then I've had people also go like, well, why is it important that you have the exact rule? And I'm like, well, if you're getting DQ'd, wouldn't you want to have an exact rule versus just uh just we don't like it?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, I mean it's it's the the vagary of any kind of test. I mean, you can read into it what you want, but I think people stop when they see the first word that that they're looking for and call that good. So you gotta be thorough and read the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Well, and people are still doing the it's you know, just because it's the rule book is searchable, they're picking a key a keyword, which may or may not be the right keyword. Yeah, and they're searching and they're just grabbing the first result that comes up and throwing that in there, and it's like, yeah, no, that's doesn't even apply.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Right. So they do have a uh a prohibition here on smoking cigars on the rain, so I'm a little bummed about that. But oh wow, how are you surviving? I know I'll get over it. He said, We have a designated smoking area. I said, Well, can I smoke in there and still run a stage? He was like, No. Well, and what's the point? There's no fire danger here with the no with the amount of water we got.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I think it's just a general range rule that they don't, you know, like you do. A lot of ranges are like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

All right, are we ready to anything else? Are we ready to dive into the mailbag?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

No, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

All right.

Glock Backstrap Mods

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Um first one is fairly easy. Um, can you modify an OEM Glock Gen 5 backstrap by cutting off part of it, retaining the beaver tail, basically to get a shorter backstrap? And I know when I first read this, I was composing the answer in my head, the standard answer we've been giving about the replacement backstraps, and then I read the question again and realized no, that's not what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

So they're talking about OEM backstraps.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

They just want to modify the OEM backstrap. And yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

And in the past we've said that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah. Because it's not creating a beaver tail, it's just eliminating some backstrap.

SPEAKER_04 18:22

Right. Yeah. And because it's an OEM, it's allowed for the rules.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yeah. OEM, OFM, whatever we use in the rulebook, firearm manufacturer.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

But yeah, I think we use OFM, but the email said OEM.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

But interestingly, there's a proposal from the rules committee going to the board, and they're going to have to put that out to member comment because it is a division equipment change uh to allow the aftermarket backstraps, the chirals and the others. So I think that's probably going to be pretty well accepted and probably go into effect in January. But right now, still can't do it. But pretty soon the chirals and all the rest will probably be okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, I think that's a good move. Because essentially, by prohibiting, we're basically penalizing people for having an old Glock. Yeah. Right. You know, that's that's kind of silly.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Well, and it's one of those things that's if you're really up on all those kind of backstraps, you can enforce it. But I mean, how many people track that, right?

unknown 19:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

So it's a rule that's almost unenforceable unless somebody's really up on how many backstraps are out there, what who makes them, what they do. Can you identify that? Um I mean, I don't know if the chiral has chiral stamped on it or not, but uh so it's just one of those things that doesn't really make a big difference. Now, that's one of the key things here at a at an IPSC match is you know, they uh they bumped a guy out of my squad to open because he actually fessed up and said he had an aftermarket magazine release. And the IPSC rules in production optics are that you can't have anything that speeds your reload, right? So he was he he actually he asked one of the guys in the squad about it, and the guy in the squad said, Yeah, that's not legal. And then he went and asked the Race Masters and they said no, so they bumped him to open, which I thought was an honest and and integral, integrity thing to do, you know.

SPEAKER_05 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

So he could have just hit it, probably nobody would have noticed. I don't think they would have picked it up at Crono, and they certainly didn't do a formal equipment check, but uh, you know he was he was honest about it, but he took his lumps and bumped it open.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

So all right, and then we had a well, it was a really

WSB Wording Fights Over Toes

SPEAKER_01 20:56

long question. I don't want to read the whole thing. Basically, part of it boiled down to the written stage briefing said toes on the fault, rear fault line. Um, and some people were saying, well, there's five toes on this foot, and this one foot is on that fault line, so that's toes. Um whereas I believe we interpret when we say toes, meaning the toes of both feet, of both shoes. Um so you know, let's let's discuss the vagaries there.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

Well, don't use the word toes.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

For one. Then you won't get the arguments.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Say feet touching fault line.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Correct. Right. And I mean, honestly, if you know, they would they would reverse that argument too and say, well, I can use the side of my foot if you say feet, right? If you want the toes of your shoes or whatever to touch. But you know, let's put a little common sense on this, and this is just One of the just freaking stop at things people are doing. Because that WSB, the specific example we got, did not say that you could have one foot inside the shooting area either, right? Right. So I it was completely out. Yeah. The the common sense approach is the toes of both feet. But I mean, when you're writing a stage brief, the more words you put, the less it's heard. So, you know, let's just freaking stop being idiots about it and trying to game everything you possibly can. Put your toes on the marks and and you know get over it.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

I know it's any more of the match directors and RMs have to have PhDs and WSB writing.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah. Yeah. It's just it basically boils down to just freaking stop it and shoot.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

So we're trying to be a range lawyer. Yeah. Just shoot the stage. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

And we've answered this next

Walls And Fault Lines Under 1.1.5.5

SPEAKER_01 22:57

one. We've answered this before, but it was posed in the realm of 1155. Um, because now people are, you know, being restricted within the shooting area, and they're wanting to hook legs under walls and hang off walls to get better leans and try and avoid having to, you know, avoid a position uh uh a stop. So um we should talk that 1155 doesn't change the whole thing about walls, but well, first question are walls part of the shooting area.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Exactly. Yeah, and if they are, then it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

And if you don't want people hooking their feet on their wall, put something hard, put a piece of plywood or something so they can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yep. Exactly. If they're not part of the shooting area, there is a rule for that.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Yeah, we have a rule for that.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

And speaking of 1155, I ran afoul of the of the IPSC must stay within the fault lines thing. Uh went to step on the corner, you know, a 90-degree angle made by two fault lines, and my foot slipped off and I touched the ground. And so they were they penalized me just one because they didn't think that I had advanced, right? I don't I don't know. So uh the the CRO was like, yeah, you touch the ground, I'm gonna penalize you one. And I said, You know, man, where I live, that don't count.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

And just touching the ground was worth one? Did you even fire a shot?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Well, I fired a shot afterwards. Yeah, but but rather than getting one per, they just gave me one because I I didn't stay within the fault lines, but I didn't technically advance, you know.

SPEAKER_04 24:44

But is their rule worded different than ours?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Uh no. I I don't think it would.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

It must be I think theirs has less words in it. That's part of the problem.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

But whatever. By rights, they probably should have hit me one further after I did that. But yeah. Um, but it it's the the problem with the ipsy rule and the problem with ours, uh I can see it coming, is you can still you can step across that corner or jump across it, and it's fine. But if you touch the ground and covered the same amount of ground, right, then no, it's not fine. And that's to me, that's just illogical. But that's uh that's just the way that they have it in there. And and it was explained to me that that's uh according to Dino, it was uh falling off a cliff penalty, right? So yeah, it's gotta be gotta be severe. Okay. So anyway, but you know, I don't I don't move that fast anymore. I wasn't watching where my feet were, and I just thought, you know, I'll step on this and then be a be good. So I just I was on both fall lines, but I did touch the ground with the edge of my foot.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

So well, oops.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

It doesn't affect my finish, I'll guarantee you that.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yep. Okay, next one.

Weapon Light Rules And Chrono Checks

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Um let's talk about flashlights. Um we've had a bunch of discussion about it here recently. Um and I think part of the confusion is that the some of the divisions that say yes in flashlights in the division criteria in the appendices, the D appendices, um, just say yes. And some of them say yes must be operable. And let's go through why that's different and what we mean by operable.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

It's different because that's how they made the rules when they added the flashlights. Right. Um part of it was the idea was, you know, uh for production karioptic single stack, if you're using a light, you're probably conceal carrying or whatever. And it they wanted the light to be operable. But they also wanted it to be operable to avoid people just filling it, taking a light and filling it with lead shot, taking the guts out and filling it with lead shot. So it would just be a weight.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Which had been done in limited and limited 10 for years.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

Limited, limited 10. It's been done there. It's fine to do in limited optics. But they added lights to carry optics single stack of production with the idea that it would be actually a functional light. Um, so they made the rule, and then like a week later, we had to put out a new rule book because um people were coming up. We was the brass weights, everyone came up with a better mousetrap, basically.

SPEAKER_05 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

So that's when the brass weights that have the little keychain LED light that you have to click hold the hold on were being sold. Um, funny thing is the first nationals, I saw a lot of those. Now I see none of them. Yeah. Um, because usually you put that weight on the front of a block, it quits running. But you know, um minor detail. Um but that's why the the those appendices for those three divisions require the light to be functional. It has to make light. And so there's been a recent discussion that a lot of times at Chrono, they're gonna check if your light works or not. And if it doesn't, you're violating the division equipment rules. So if you're going to any match and you have a weapon-mounted light in carry optics, production, or single stack, you better make sure it has batteries in it. You better make sure the batteries have some charge, or if it's a rechargeable, charge it up. Because at any time during the match, even if there's no chrono, ROs can ask you to prove your light works.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And if it doesn't, it's a divide violation of division. And other violations of division move you to open. You're gonna shoot open. Yep. Yep. So um, you know, it it when the back when we first started allowing lights, uh rail mounted lights in in limited, limited 10. We saw a ton of them, and then you know, a couple guys came out with the lights bodies filled full of lead shot. And I noticed that was it for like one year. Yeah. And the second year, the guys that had them last year didn't have them this year. Some new people had them, but they just died out. I mean, it's you're adding so much weight to the gun. It's your your transition is slow, way the heck down. You're overswinging because you've got so much mass out on the end of the barrel. Um, and you know, so now weapon-mounted lights in a you know, a lot of people carry with weapon-mounted light. Um, and you know, a regular light doesn't have that much mass. Um, it's going to affect recoil to some extent. But yeah, just make sure they work.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Well, and then some people, like in those three divisions, well, especially carry optics, sometimes have the holsters where the light is needed for proper retention. Right. So, um, and so I guess, you know, still you still have to make sure the light's working. Carter's bare batteries in your bag before you go to Chrono, definitely check. But like I said, at on any stage, ROs can ask you to show that your light works. And when you're proving your light works, whatever you do, do not put your hand in front of the barrel and shine the light on the end. Shine it against a wall. Shine it against a wall or the ground or something, please.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Because if you sweep yourself proving that your light works, that you can prove something else. We have another rule that applies. Yeah. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Your light works, but you're not violating your division rules, but exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, so yeah, think it through. Um yeah, word of the wise. If you're if you're headed the major to majors this year, this has been discussed enough that uh you're you're probably gonna see light checks. So just be forewarned. Okay. Um got an email asking about obscuring uh poppers, um, using real hardcover with steel plates. Um,

Steel Hard Cover And Popper Visibility

SPEAKER_01 31:44

and thought we could discuss that. Um, you know, keeping in mind that if you're talking about the minis, you have to have a whole scoring zone available. Um with uh you know, with others, you can do other things. Yeah, and people are wanting, you know, it's I think in this case they were wanting to what make a steel dub hardcovered donut that only presented the uh calibration zone.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

Yeah, so it's so we have minimum visibility requirements for poppers. So it's half the calibration zone for full size and 100% for minis. So yeah, they wanted to have a a donut basically you had to shoot through to get to the popper, which is legal. Yep, but you gotta make sure the visibility of the popper is retained. Um, we don't have visibility requirements for steel for plates, just same. Um, so I would probably do that with a plate versus a popper. Um but yeah, you gotta make sure at some point during the course of fire, the visibility requirements of those poppers are met, are met. Um, it doesn't mean that somewhere else on the course of fire you can have just the top, the head of a popper available or whatnot. But at some point during the course of fire, you have to meet those visibility requirements.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, and there's other ways to do that than you know, fabricating that circle because that means a a plate of probably AR500 you have to have cut to the right dimensions. There's some popper systems out there that mount a hardcover uh shape, you know, in front of the in front of the actual popper. It's separated from it.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So you shoot past it or you shoot over it. It can be split vertically or horizontally or something like that. So there's all kinds of ways to do that. The the the LP on this on this email though uh did the math and the math was correct, right?

SPEAKER_05 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

So it was like the old joke, you know, pi r square, it's like no pi r round, cornbread r square. Exactly. Uh but yeah, so he did the math on it. I mean, that's legit, but I would, you know, I would maybe go a little bit bigger than that just to ensure that you can actually see that entire circle for everybody.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

And it also depends on where you're there's a whole bunch of things like where the shooter, how far is the shooter away from the hole? And the angle they're seeing it at. I don't know. Yeah, it's I mean, like whenever I've we've used real steel hardcover on poppers, we've taken like the uh the uh USPSA target shit shaped steel and made them as no shoots or hardcover and set them in front of a couple poppers, right? Right. So they're still partially blocking the poppers, but we maintain the visibility and it's fun because at the whole range can tell when people hit them.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:42

It's just like boom. Um and if you make them no shoots, it hurts a little more.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Um just saying.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

Just make sure you're you know, you can tell the edge of that no shoot to hard cover steel versus so you know that's why they're hardcovered. Um yeah, make sure they can their contrast between the poppers and that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

But um But just to be just to be clear, what Jody's saying about making them no shoots, you cannot cut a hole in one and have to shoot through it.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

And call the outside edge a no shoot. You can do it with a flat piece, uh in a vertical or horizontal, but you can't do it with a circle.

SPEAKER_04 35:22

Right. You can never cut any kind of no-shoot target and have people shoot through it, steel or cardboard.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Yeah, and and remember the contrasting colors because a white no-shoot against a white popper is no bueno. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:35

Um yeah, so I mean, like so for um like cardboard targets, right? People want to cut out the a zone of a no-shoot and then put that over a scoring target. You can't technically legally you cannot cut a no single no-shoot and do that. But you can take four no shoots and hang them around an A zone of a scoring target. And that's legal.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

So um there's ways of making challenging targets and partially covering targets, but you've got to be smart about it. So, like hardcover, like you know, we've at nationals we've had where we have um a tar a steel plate with a hole in it, and there's like a bobber target behind it and another steel plate. So when people were shooting through the hole and hitting the they may have been hitting the cardboard, they were also hearing the second ding of a second plate, right? Yeah, but that was all hardcover, so it was legal.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Right. And it was fun to watch. That's job.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

If you're gonna use hardcover, use it responsibly.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yeah. Oh my there's so many things.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

Don't do go to oh too far. It's like one stage, not every stage.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

There's so many things I could say here, and I won't. Oh heavens. Okay. Uh,

Stage Safety Obstacles And Accessibility

SPEAKER_01 37:17

we also got a rather lengthy, interesting email uh from someone who was concerned about construction and safety and how stages are built and trip hazards and things. And you know, the the one the thought that kept running through my head as I read the email, and I I read it a couple times, was this is an action sport. And there is no there is no rule that says we have to build stages that allow a competitor to go full tilt without any paying any attention to the surfaces they're running, walking, whatever on. Um, and that you know, that part of the challenge a lot of times, and especially in the old older days, um the part of the challenge was negotiating, safely negotiating uh a physically channel challenging course of fire. We used to have scaling walls. Um it's been a while. Uh we got rid of those, but I don't know if they got rid of them, or they've they're not formally banned in the rule book, but they're also no, they're still there. Yeah, I haven't. Um and uh Rhodesian walls, yeah. Rhodesian walls. I mean, and you know, we've most of the Rhodesian walls that I've seen since I've been shooting have been very um easy. And the original Rhodesia walls from looking at old, you know, America, you know, guns and ammo magazine write-ups, those Rhodesia walls were not easy.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Maybe we should explain what a Rhodesian wall is.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

So a Rhodesian wall is a wall that has um usually four by eight, that's just because it's convenient. And in the center is a length of rope, usually. There's a knot tied in the end of it, usually. Sometimes I've seen them with nylon webbing. And the idea being that to get your shot, you're gonna have to hang on this rope and lean out around the wall. Um, I don't know what's if you're simulating climbing a wall with a rope or what the concept. I don't even know why the word Rhodesian, other than maybe it was invented in Rhodesia.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

Uh I mean, obviously, I mean, that's an obvious, very common self-defense situation where you need to hang off the edge of a ledge holding onto a rope.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Only if you're named Tom Cruise and you're in an Emission Impossible movie.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

Or uh Bruce Willis or Bruce Willis and you're in Nokatomi Plaza or Tower.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

That's a Christmas movie.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

It is a Christmas movie, yeah. Absolutely. Um and so anyway, um, I haven't even seen a Rhodesian wall in a number of years.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

Well, a lot of that stuff when PCC came into play kind of went away.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Kind of went away. But you know, but you you still there are things that you know we still have make people go up and down stairs to go across bridges. We have wobble shaky wobble platforms, we have you know all sorts of other crazy things.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Balance beams. That's what the email is about.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

So we try and tell people when you're gonna do a balance beam or make people walk the plank, um, you know, have a wide enough plank that it's accessible to most people.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

And I'm waiting for someone to invoke 1155 on a walk the plank stage.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah. Now, the other thing that we you know everybody you know needs to keep in mind that if you if you are not physically or a shooter, not necessarily you, but if a shooter is not physically up to the challenge, they can talk to the RM about getting a special penalty. And the RM can, in lieu of them doing walking the plank or scaling the wall or doing road diesel wall or whatever, um, going uh going through a Cooper's tunnel, any of those things. Um, they can give give them a special penalty, and the rule book lays out the crite, you know, what what you can do there uh in terms of procedurals or a percentage of score. And that that makes it accessible to everyone that feels that they can't do it. So that's you know, this is an action sport. Um if you try and engineer it to where it's safe and we don't have trip hazards. Well, we specify that our fault lines have to stick above the ground so that they can be felt by the shooters with their feet, you know, tactily. Um that by its very nature makes them a trip hazard. And so, you know, lots of us have tripped over fault lines. Um, so you know, it happens. And but you've you've just got to negotiate that stuff. You've got to be aware of where your feet are, you've got to be aware of what's down there. A lot of ranges are slippery. You get on a nice grass range in the dew in the morning, or it's raining. That's super slippery. Um, you know, those that shoot when you know during the winter when you have snow and ice, also slippery. Um, you know, but it's just you have to uh you know be aware of your capabilities, the capabilities of your footwear, um, and you know, judge your speeding your speed accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Indeed. Uh Murray Gardner, one of the uh well, he founded IpsyCin, Canada, right? Uh he's gonna be here at this match. So uh maybe I'll ask him about Rhodesian walls and we'll put it out somewhere in the future.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah, that'd be great. You know, Carl Cooper spent a lot of time going to Rhodesia, so that may just be a name that he coined. Who knows? Right. All right. Um, let's see.

What A Drop Step Really Is

SPEAKER_01 43:31

All right, more we we're can getting a fairly steady trickle of questions about 1155. Um, and I thought we you know talk about drop steps is there seems to be some we had a person write in, and from their description, it sounds like they were penalized for a drop step. And so I thought maybe we could talk about what is a drop step and what things would be penalized, what things wouldn't be penalized. Um and go through the the whole thing there.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah, for sure. So basically what everybody calls a drop step is when you're on the edge of a shooting area, fault lines, obviously, and you go to take off or or even you are stopping and you step outside and step back in at the same place. That's essentially a drop step. That's not penalized under 1155 because you stepped out and back in at the same place. Now, what you can do is step out, advance, right, and then retreat back and step back in. That's not gonna cut it, but just that simple drop step out and then back in. That's what we mean by drop step or a you know, stumble outside or anything, because the key to the that rule is advancing outside the fault line. Okay. So don't don't build traps in there. They have, of course, it's an IPSC match here, but they have a stomp box that's outside the demarked fault lines, but they indicated in the stage brief that it is part of the shooting area, so that when you step on it, you're not stepping outside, right? So because if you stepped on it and then moved off of it, uh, then they could theoretically, I guess, interpret that as advancing off of the off the stomp box. But because they said it was part of the shooting area, then you're fine, right? You can step on it and do whatever you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

So now, so does advancing only mean moving downrange, or is advanced can you advance laterally?

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Um, I mean, I think any movement outside the fault lines under the IPSC rules is considered, you know, uh advancing, but they do consider whether you gained an advantage doing that or not in some cases. And then they can specifically allow you to do it in certain stages. I remember in at the world shoot in France, there was a stage where everybody was running outside the fault lines to avoid uh to go around some barrels. And uh head of IROA said that that was okay. So the the CRO on that stage, who's a guy I know pretty well, uh, I asked him, I was like, what's up with that? And he said, Oh, they said it was fine, so everybody's doing it. I was like, Man, that just seems like that bust that rule all the all the pieces, right? But yeah, I mean laterally, uh the object is that you should stay inside the fault lines except for inadvertent steps outside, right? So, yeah, if you move sideways across the shooting area, across one from into the other, then you know you obviously violated that rule, whether it was horizontal or vertical. Uh because you did not take the time to make that 290-degree turn to do whatever you needed to do.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

So all right, and Jody, the Google has answered the question. Took a shortcut.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Yeah. According to Google. So in 1977, Ips Hangun World Shoot 3 was held in Salisbury, Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe. And that's when the about the time the Rhodesian wall became popular, popular. And the 1977 World Shoot in Rhodesia introduced rigorous multi-directional field courses that incorporated military-style physical obstacles.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Ah, there we go.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

And sometimes the Rhodesian wall was paired with the Cooper tunnel. Anyway, um I do like how the AI overwheels modern practical shooting has transitioned away from heavy physical obstacle course with racing for safety reasons. But the Rhodesian wall remains a legacy term and simulated prop used in historical stages and multigun tactical match designed to force unconventional shooting positions or round limitations. That was cited from Reddit. So but the first, the first two, most of this information is from shooting sports USA. So I'd say that's pretty legit. Probably good.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

All right. I then learned something. Can I be excused?

SPEAKER_04 48:11

But you know, if you want to verify that fact, Troy, that'd be interesting to see if if AI is right or not.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Right. It's hallucinating. It's a very specific thing to hallucinate.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

Ipsic founded in 1976. So how is World Shoot 3 happening in 77?

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Probably parallel stuff. I have no idea. Yeah. The early days are a little foggy.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

Well, it may have been there, it just wasn't formally.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Referring back to our episode with Michael Bain, there was a lot of alcohol involved.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

There's a this is the 50th anniversary of Ipsy Canada.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

So where does that put you? 50 years from now, it was 1976.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

76, 77, depending on how you're counting.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Yeah. Huh. Okay. Well, there you go. Uh, let's see.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Um okay. Moving on.

Half Cock Starts And Ready Conditions

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Uh gentlemen wrote in some my question regarding using something like it was a very long question. I summarized. Oh, my question is regarding using something like a shadow to unlimited optics and the valid of starting from the three-quarter cock start position. And then is that legal?

SPEAKER_04 49:38

Yeah, he's basically saying that he doesn't see anywhere in the rules where starting in a three-quarter cock position is illegal.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

In limited optics?

unknown 49:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Why would you? Why not just cock it and put the safety on or whatever?

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Well, that's my question. Let me pull up. I gotta pull up the emails. I answered him once. I need to answer him again because I gave him an answer. He didn't, he still was arguing with me. But he was saying that if you start with at half cock or three-quarters cock in production or cary optics, it's just a bump to open. And I'm like, and it's not, it's not, it's a um, it's something different and open and limited. And I'm like sitting there looking at it, it's like it's uh you've holstered a gun in an unsafe condition.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Yeah, that's not a bump to open.

SPEAKER_04 50:30

So that's not a bump to the parking lot. That's not a bump to open. That's a uh welcome to uh a DQ. Yeah. For ice cream. But you know, I tried to explain to him it's different for production and carry optics because that's how the rules are written for double action, single action.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Right. Um here it is. He's getting confused by your whole quoting of the ready condition thing.

SPEAKER_04 50:59

Yeah. Um he's a master in carry optics and limited optics and a certified RO for the last couple years. Um he wants to use a shadow to in limited optics and starting at the three-quarters cock start position. Um, because he thinks that's legal because production and carry optics are worded for one way and it's not worded that way in limited. So we are limited optics. You've got to remember that carry optics and production appendices are worded different than the rest of the appendices. So basically, for the rest of the dependent appendices, for the rest of the divisions, if it's not listed, it's legal. Whereas production and carry optics is the opposite. It has to be listed to be legal.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 51:45

But but what he's saying still violates the the published ready conditions for a selective action firearm.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Right. There you go. I mean, that's the answer to that question.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

Yeah, he says if a comparison were to start three-quarters cock on a manual to cock double action gun, then they get bumped into open in production and carry optics, which is not true. I want to find out where he shoots. Um which means that it's a legal start condition in open, which would also apply to limited optics. Some people have posted it would be a DQ. Um, yeah. Um, but this definition of writing conditions three-course cock is still a double action condition. Single action means it's on the sear rated draw, blah, blah, blah. So I emailed and said, I quoted the rule that basically says the writing conditions are chamber loaded with hammer fully down or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 52:43

And I told him in limited optics, you can start in one of those two. You can't start at three-quarters or half cock. Yeah. And then he's like, so I need to reply to him because it was late at night and I was like, he was making my head hurt. Um but I'm gonna tell him I don't know where you're getting this bump to open thing. Yeah, but if you do this, it's a DQ. It doesn't matter what division you're shooting, because you've holstered a gun that is not in a proper safe condition.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Right. And he's talking about three-quarter cock without the safety on, if it could even be applied, and it could be.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

I don't think it could even be applied. But I mean, I so like okay, in carry optics and production, if you were to start with a hammer back and safety engaged, yes, that would be a bump to open.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Correct? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

But if you holster a gun that's not hammer fully down or decocked or without or hammered any kind of back without the safety on, then that's a DQ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Well, one of those things is it a violation of the division requirements. One of those things is a viol violation of this safety rule.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Yeah, all violations of safety rules have the same outcome.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

I sometimes wonder what's happening at local matches when you see rules like this. I think we don't want to or questions like this, I mean.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Questions like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

Yeah. Because he didn't give me a member number, so I can't figure out where he shoots. Um anyway, but yeah, I was just kind of like what? Well, I don't know why why he wouldn't start hammer back safety on. Unless it's one of the shadow twos that doesn't have this safety, it just has the decocker.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Yeah, I'd yeah, maybe. But so he's thinking that if he only three-quarter cocks it, then it's it's not fully cocked, it wouldn't have to have the safety on.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Well, they'll have a lighter tricker pole. All right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Yeah, I don't know. If it's got a decocker, does it have a safety?

SPEAKER_04 54:50

I'm I'm not sure Well, a lot of the times if they have a decocker, they don't have a safety. They either have a safety or a decocker. So that's like why a lot of the people are shooting the ones with the safety where they have to manually drop them all the way down, right? Because it's supposed to be a better trigger or something. I don't know. I don't own these type of guns, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Um, it's got to be hammer fully down, and fully is the key word. Yeah. Or if it's cocked, the safety has to be applied.

SPEAKER_04 55:22

Well, if it's a decocker, he can drop it with the decocker.

unknown 55:25

Right?

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Yeah. And so I I except the same down. But I will clarify, but I'm assuming he has a gun that just has a decocker.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

And that's why he wants to do the shenanigans. Now, if he drops it to the safety notch, which is what the decocker drops to, it's not technically fully down, but that's where the decocker drops it to.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

And it's allowed. And that's allowed. Except when we tell you to hammer down. Well, that yeah, you can't use it then at the end of the course of fire.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

But I don't think he's asking about that part.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

No. But I don't want somebody coming back on the podcast. You said we could use the decocker. Context, people, context.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

We're talking about the make ready part here. Still have to pull the trigger at the end.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Yeah. Okay. Moving on. Yes.

Strong Hand Only Means Only

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Um interesting. Speaking of questions that make you wonder. Um basic the gist of it was the written stage briefing said we can. It didn't say we can't only. So people felt that since the word only wasn't there, that meant you could use the strong hand for support. Um, no.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

If you look in the definition of the rule book, it's weak hand or strong hand.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Right. Yeah, this the only is just an extra word. And we used to you used to see it all the time in classifiers. You know, weak hand only or strong hand only. Um but if this it's an old, it's an old thing.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

Um, that being said, if you're writing WSPs, you probably should use it just to avoid arguments. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

Because stuff like this happens.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Yeah, that convention arose because of that. But I mean, if it says we can, it means we can. It doesn't mean support it any other way, because the rules also cover what happens if you are supporting when a stage specifies shooting with your weak or strong hand. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

Oh yeah. And that also support also includes using that incapacitating hand on a wall or something else, too.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Yeah. So just freaking stop. I think this is a just freaking stop for the people who are trying to game stuff.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

So all right. And then this one actually came with pictures, um, but which was which was handy.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

And here's all the pictures here.

SPEAKER_05 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Um,

Steel Challenge Gear Calls And PCC Braces

SPEAKER_01 58:08

you can find, we'll tell you what the what it is, and you can go use the Google and go find it. Um, so this is pertains to Steel Challenge only. I had a competitor registered in Carioptics who had a SIG 365 fuse that he had put in the file control unit in an Icarus module. Um, see attachments. I believe it is a Magwell due to flaring at the base under 22.3 under the Carioptics Division. Is that the correct call? And um, Troy, you answered this one. Do you want to elaborate?

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah, so that Icarus module, they they sell a couple. One of them is fully flared on the on the outside edges, it's flared all the way around. The second one is flared front and back. And so it still qualifies as a bagwheel. I think they also sell one that's not flared. Um the rules allow you to change grip modules like that, but it can't have a bagwell, et cetera, in whatever division you're putting it in, like carry optics for production.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

So um before we should put the other question that I sent about the PCCs, because it was a steel it was a steel challenge question.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

It's my 15, it's my 15, it's not on your list. Um, talk about braces versus docks and PCC.

SPEAKER_04 59:27

Yeah, because I had a former student email me asking about um PCCO, so I knew it was Steel Challenge. Uh they had a competitor who had assembled a pistol, you know, it was a nine millimeter pistol on the, you know, the same lower that we PCCs would be built on or receiver. Um put, and it was a pistol, classified as a pistol, with a brace, and came and shot PCCO. And after the match was over, they were questioning whether that was legal. And I pointed them to the appendix, which says no braces of any type are allowed. And the question was, well, but the competitor shot it, you know, you didn't, it was one of the braces that wraps around your forearm. Um the compet the competitor shot it, you know, as from the shoulder. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. Um if it's a brace, the kind that wraps around the arm or the blades, kind of braces that are not butt stocks. It can't be shot in PCC, any PCC division, USBSA or SCSA.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Well, it's a pistol with a brace, too. So the pistol part disqualifies it right there. You have to put a stock on it and SBR it if you're gonna shoot it at the short round what you know, PCC. I had a similar question this week as well, asking about his brace, et cetera. And you know, and well, do I have to make it an SBR? I was like, if it's under 14 inches per federal law, you have to. Um if you put a stock on it. I think the there's some muddiness there in what a stock and a brace look like, right? Oh yeah. So you have these really thin pieces. I mean, okay, I bought a 300 hammer uh pistol from Wilson Combat. Right. And it came with a brace, right? Yeah. So it was just a very narrow piece of uh plastic, essentially, yeah, on the on the existing tube, you know. Yeah. Uh but it's still a brace because if they don't call it a brace, then it's gotta be SBR'd.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

And I mean, honestly, that's the only difference in a short-barrel rifle and a pistol is what it has on the on the butt end. Oh, yeah. And the paperwork. Yeah, and the paperwork. So I've since SBR'd it and put a stock on it because that brace was just miserable to shoot with that caliber. And, you know, that's what you gotta do. Yeah. But it's not uh Yeah, I mean, the idea of uh buying a pistol to compete with, there's several, you know, pistols out there like that that are chambered in, you know, real centrified rifle cartridges or or pistol calibers or whatever, but it doesn't qualify as a PCC unless per you know a fairly recent board ruling, I guess, that you SBR it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Yeah. Yeah, I mean we typically don't take check paperwork, but um No, but if you show up with that and you got a brace on it, yeah, you're not gonna be shooting. Yeah, yeah. So Especially not the the brace that wraps around your arm.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

I mean, that's very obvious. Well, and just remember if you do get an SBR uh if you're traveling interstate out between states, you gotta have permission slip.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

So Yeah. Yeah. Which will be interesting because they're the ATF has that notice of proposed rulemaking out for comment about getting rid of all that interstate um silliness, which will be interesting in terms of the SBRs and other things that some states care about.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

So still doesn't get us SBRs in the state of Washington, but whatever. So okay. Um,

Speed Shoot Reload Limits And Design

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

and then uh we got a question sent in by one of our uh Rangemaster folks um with a speech shoot stage. There was a USPSA target on a swinger bobber. There were two swingers, two on each one on each end, and then there was a whole bunch of steel. And there was eight pieces of steel. Twelve. Twelve pieces of steel, because it was total. So it was two rounds total.

unknown 1:04:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

So 12 pieces of steel, I think, mostly poppers. Yeah, it was all poppers.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

And um in between and the rim stage briefing said I don't remember now what it's he had to do a reload before the last two shots.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Well, didn't it also say you had to do a reload after the first scoring shot? I'm pulling it up right now. Because if that's what made it illegal, was requiring two reloads.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:28

Uh at Star Selig targets first must perform a mandatory layer after first scoring shot and prior to the final. It was one reload. They just had to do it after their first shot and prior to the final two scoring shots.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

Okay, I rated as two.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:42

No. It's still just one reload. But the problem is it was 12 paper, 12 steel, two paper, two perd on the paper. So it was 16 rounds, but speed shoots require you to there has to be a reload if after eight rounds.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

And the way this was set up, you know, usually we kind of break things into arrays so it's easy for the competitor to do a reload in between. And the way this was set up, there wasn't any arrays per se. Right? It was one big array. Right. And so the question was, you know, is this a legal stage? And it's like, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:27

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

Um the rule says no more than eight rounds may be required without a mandatory reload. Yeah. Um so I don't know. You like you can't just say, well, you gotta make a reload somewhere in there. Just gotta do it before your last two shots. And you can't do it before you start shooting. It's not a legal stage of any type. I guess if you're using the level one exception on a medium course, but

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

That's just lazy stage design. Yeah. Okay. Moving on.

Extra Time For First Shooter Courtesy

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Um, we had a competitor complain about an RO that not let him have extra time to study the stage when he was the first up. We had never heard of this as being true. Jay Warden's recent article had commented that we should allow this. What is proper, especially at level two, since we're hosting uh sectional this year.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:30

I'm assuming you referenced a reference in an article Jay had in the magazine.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

Yeah. I mean, that's a recommendation. You could do it. You don't have to do it. It's not a requirement. It's not a requirement. I mean, normally that first guy up is gonna be walking your stage while you're resetting whatever you activated or whatever after the walkthrough period, right? Um so if if they take another, you know, 30 seconds, because I mean I've seen that a lot of times. There'll be, you know, people say, okay, time zone, clear the stage.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

And then the first guy up is is gonna go walk it again. Um no real prohibition on that, but I wouldn't let him walk it forever either.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:12

Yeah, like if he wants to take like three minutes or something, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:17

But if he's like in the middle of walking and you say, you know, wait for him to come back to the start position before you give him make ready.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:27

It's kind of a courtesy, but honestly, most of the guys that are first up on the stage are gonna are gonna walk it quite a bit unless they're not aggressive enough to take charge of that when it's their time up first, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

Well, and they have memories because they just got done with the walkthrough.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Yeah. Well, one of the things that that I noticed here was if you were first on the in the shooting order, and they always this squad always asked who's first, right? Um, they did sort of an odd auto rotation and sorted by shooter number instead of uh last name or first name or anything. So you couldn't just say, Oh, his name is Dobbs and my name is Murphy, so I'm gonna be behind him, right? Right. Um, but so they say who's up first, and then they would just back up, and you could be the you would be the first guy to walk that stage, and obviously you would be the guy to tell them when to trip, whatever was being tripped, etc. And then they the squad usually, you know, kind of made way for you to to walk it a little bit more than everybody else. Well, because honestly, you're seeing, I mean, if if you're if your stage plan isn't great and you didn't lock it in while you walked it, you can just stand back and watch people shoot it and say, oh, okay, there I gotta I gotta make a reload, here I have to make a reload. I need to stop right there and shoot this. You just need to pay attention, right? Yeah. But the first guy doesn't have that opportunity. Now I'm not saying that you should give them, like I said, a ton of time to do it, but they do have a chance to walk the stage, and it's courteous to let the first guy in the shooting order walk it first. So obviously, if you're rotating through walking, he might have more than you know, more chances than everybody else. But oh, so I thought it was just because the Canadians were polite, eh?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

Well, um, you know, that's a double-edged sword, though. Watching everybody else shoot it is the number one cause for people abandoning their stage plan and trying something else that they haven't thoroughly thought out.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:31

Yeah, don't change your stage plan. Yeah, it goes now now. If your stage plan, original stage plan, emitted a target you didn't realize was there. Yeah, exactly. Definitely update your stage plan.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

Right. Yeah, if you're standing there thinking, what did he look at over there?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:49

Why is everybody going over there and leaning around that wall?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:52

Oh, I must have missed something.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Why is there a rope hanging around that wall that everybody's walking off of? So yeah. But yeah, I'm one of those weird people that I would if if it was allowed, I would just about almost always just want to go first. Because I just I lock it in while I'm walking it and I just want to go. And you know, so yeah, that's but not everybody's like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:22

So well, some people the neuralizer nix their plan anyway, so well, yeah, that's what it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

Yeah. See target, shoot target, bang bang.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:34

That's pretty okay until there's it's a stage where you can see all the targets like 15 times.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Yeah. Then you go through a lot of ammo.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:42

And you're like, I didn't I didn't engage that target twice. The R's like, no, you engaged it three times. That's why there's six holes on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

Right. Yeah.

Low Cap Reload Planning And Stage Mazes

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

And look at these two dose shoots.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:55

It's also helpful when you're trying to plan reloads because I mean, if you come from, say you come from the US, where you know, carry optics is 140 millimeter magazine, you can get 20 or 22 in there, and you're cut back down to 10, and you're you're thinking in US terms, like, well, hell, I could shoot those two targets from here too. Uh no, you don't want to do that. You gotta figure out where you're gonna make that reload and not have to do a standing reload, right? Yeah, right. So IPSIC, it's nine shots per view, too, right? Uh yeah, but they pretty much kept it down to like eight.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:36

Eight, eight, four, something like that, you know. But I mean, you couldn't do it because you would be running 12. You don't have that many to get it. You might have 11, but you're not gonna have 12.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

So I mean, I I kind of I wish I wish we had, I mean, we have L10, right? And I'm I've shot it a little bit right now. I'm not shooting anything because my stupid elbow, but um I started shooting with production 10 rounds, then I shot single stack for a little while. I like the mental challenge of having to break down a stage and do my reloads.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:11

Well, it's the problem is all our low cap divisions lack an optic. Right. Well, right. And so I think if we had some low cap divisions other than L10 that had loud optics, I think there would be more people taking doing it. But again, people don't like reloading. But reloading's not that bad once you've practiced it, right? And I think that's a good skill to have because last time I checked, most uh carry concealed carry guns were not 20-something round magazines. Um and well, frankly, if you have to use a concealed carry gun and have to do a reload, well you shouldn't have been there.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

Yeah, it's not a good thing, but um, you know, being able to do a couple folks from my squad if they feel like they're uh mentally challenged having to play in reloads. You feel like you're mentally challenged? It's like what?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:10

Well, I mean, eventually you learn you just gotta you just gotta move reload every time you move. Right but if it's one of the you can always tell us when the stage is designed by an open or limited shooter. Yeah. Because sometimes those stages are really hard to break down for a low cap shooter.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:25

Correct. Yeah. As long as the whole match isn't that way, it's fine. I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:33

Well, you're shooting revolver, you're I mean, like I mentioned, uh the one of the stages I'm running is is eight poppers. So unless you miss, you don't have to make a reload. Right. Yep. There's quite a bit of movement in it for just shooting eight poppers.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

There's not eight poppers in a line, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

No, no, that's they're scattered out on like the four compass points almost. Well, obviously not past the 180, but uh and then there's a little maze you gotta run through of walls where you're not doing anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:14

So you have to stay in the fault lines, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:19

See, that's another thing. That's what my biggest fear with the 1155 is people are just gonna build these elaborate mazes to make people run through. And um, I just want to remind people this is a shooting sport. We're supposed to be testing shooting skills with some movement, but not just pure how fast can you run through a maze.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:38

Yeah, kind of that was a pretty common theme. Uh, I mean, they could have the way that they had the walls and the poppers hidden with the walls, they could have taken the entire center part out and still had a challenge, but it would have given you an option to shoot some poppers on the move if you felt like it, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

In this case, you gotta you know, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot, move, or shoot at the end. So it's pretty much four static positions. But there is some running in between because there's a little maze in there. Everybody in the squad was commenting on that, you know. And I mean, it's okay, it's a legal stage, it's just you know, a little bit more movement than you would think. And so 40 points and with the movement involved, nobody got a super high hit factor out of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:24

Right. Well, and also when it's basically there's one way, it also made basically it's one way to shoot the stage.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

Yeah. Yeah, you can shoot, you could start anywhere, but you were you were not you would not be bright if you started in the back. You need to start up front. And then you could start on the left front corner or the right front corner. That was kind of your two options to run it. Because if you started in the rear, you still had to run up front, and then you'd have to come all the way back.

unknown 1:15:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

It was uh it was kind of a kind of a no-brainer kind of thing, but you know, it was fun to shoot. I'm not saying it wasn't fun, but stage design-wise, uh not so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:04

All right.

Nationals Updates Classes LMS And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:16:05

Well, that's all the questions we have for tonight. Um, anything else, either one of you want to go over?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Uh Race Gun National's coming up. We're finalizing stuff with staff and things like that. I think the mask book's coming out soon.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:19

Um, if you're going and want to order ammo, you better do that before the end of the month.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:25

Yeah, you're done.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:27

Because they uh sent that announcement out today.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

Did they change the date to July 30th?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:33

Or uh the one I saw it was like the end of the month.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

Oh, that'd be like the 31st. Because the one that Jake sent to proof, I said it said August 31st. And I was like, the match will be over by then. And he said, nobody but you would read that far.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:51

Yeah, this the one I got Friday. I saw one that said July too.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

So yeah. He's like, nobody but you would read that far.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:59

So I think I saw that first too, and I'm like, well, that's a pretty generous time to ship ammo to a match, you'd be done. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:07

I guess you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:10

Um I think on Facebook, the Facebook post I saw said it was the end of the month. Yeah, he must have fixed it. So since I withdrew from the shooting the match, I'm not getting the emails for the competitors, but um, I saw it on Facebook and it was end of July.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:27

So and daffing for factory gun is pretty much wrapped up. It'll be ready for you when you get home, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:36

And so then we'll let everybody know.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:39

Um and yeah, I gotta book my tickets.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

Yeah. So yeah, it's it will be here before we know it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:48

So looking forward to it. It'll be fun. All right, anything else? Nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

I think we're I did a quick count last night, and we are I believe within two of our record for number of classes. And um I think we've got a good shot at busting 100 this year. So um that's that's a good that's a good problem to have. So if you're thinking about classes, uh get them on the calendar. We've already got a number of classes on the calendar, I think six already on the calendar for uh 20 2027. So get them in there.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:40

Um yeah, but hold off. Well, I guess this is gonna go out Monday. Yeah. Uh so August 1st. Wait till August 1st to schedule new classes, because in theory, they should be on the new learning system.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:55

So yeah, that's right. Yeah, so it's the same content, it's just different LMS. Very I think much improved. Yeah. So yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:11

Yeah, go ahead and and uh but yeah, talk with your group. So we typically we don't have a ton of seminars during the summer. As we start getting towards fall, uh, we start doing a lot more seminars. Um and uh then on through at least in the states that don't get a lot of snow. We do have we do seminars in the snow in the northern tier. Uh good luck finding an instructor. Um, but we do, you know, if you have an in access to an indoor range, um, that's no problem. I did a a class in Fairbanks in February and it was uh minus minus 20 something on range day, but it was about 55 in the in the indoor range, so wasn't a problem. But uh so yeah, we do classes pretty much year round. We just because it's shooting season, we typically don't have a ton of classes during the summer. So all right. Anything else? We're good. All right, folks. Always remember uh you can reach us by email at rules at uh uspsa.org and uh we will get an answer back to you. We've been a little backed up lately just because stuff's going on, we're busy. Um, but we try and get answers out as quick as we can. So and uh and if you're sending us an email and you don't ask a question and we don't respond, it's because you didn't ask a question. So if you want an answer to a question, ask a question. Um we ever once in a while we'll get one that describes this very elaborate scenario and it'll be like I don't see a question here. Okay. And we'll go back to him and say, was there a question? So yeah, if you're asking a question, ask a question. Anyway, rules at uspsa.org. And uh with that, thanks to you both. And we'll see you all in two weeks. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:10

Bye. Good night.

How To Find Or Host NROI Seminars

SPEAKER_01 1:21:11

Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NROI seminars under the NROI tab at USBSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRI tab at USBSA.org.