Introduction

SPEAKER_03 0:04

This is the NROI podcast, your source for factual information for USPSA and SDSA competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Oxford Institute, United States Practical Scooting Association, and Steel Challenge Scooting Association. All world books can be found at USBSD.org slash tools, STSA.org slash tools, and on the USBS Day and SDSA apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Obscurance Institute. Rule discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules could be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 103, recorded in late June 2026. Well, hello everyone. Kevin Emmel here with the NRY Podcast. And back with me as usual are our director, Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy. Good evening. And Jody Human. Good evening, Jody. Good evening. And the Emperor himself, Russell Fortney. Good evening, Russell. Good evening, guys. So

Meet The Hosts And Russell

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Russell's here because two weeks ago, um, and I don't even remember who said it, but I did. I did talking about Russell being called the Emperor of Area 8. And uh somebody said that maybe it was he was self that his emperor title was self-appointed. Turns out he was actually that was actually a uh an anointed title. So Russell, you want to tell the story?

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Uh not really, but I guess I will. It's better, it's better to have the truth out there than for people to think like I I invented this myself. And uh gonna run.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So let me let me do a little bit before you start. So for those of you that don't know him, Russell Fortney is the Area 8 director. Uh he's uh York practical shooters on Facebook. Um he's also a Range Master instructor for USPSA. Uh just finished up with his RO uh training, so he's good for that and working on the CRO training. And uh Russell does quite a bit as an area director to promote USPSA, yes he does. To promote people in his area to uh to organize and and uh work matches, uh travel all over the place working matches. You're also IROA certified, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Um provisional IROA.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Provisional IROA, okay. So you'll get your they'll pin your wings on you here pretty soon, I'm sure. So Russell, out of all the people on the board, in my opinion, is the most active person as far as promoting USPSA, et cetera. And he always uh puts things the emperor when he does stuff. So uh I made the mistake of saying it was a self-appointed title, but evidently it's not. So welcome Russell and uh and go ahead and give us your story.

The Emperor Title Origin Story

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Okay, thanks a lot. So uh after the election for Area 8 in 2023, so this was around the July timeframe, uh, when I won the election uh somehow. And uh one of the guys who runs the match that's near my house, it's the closest match to my house, that's about 15 minutes away. And I go there frequently. And at the time I was going there a lot to help set up and everything. So they have the stages designed for the next match already. And I don't know what the number of the rounds was, but I'm always talking about 32 rounds. Every most people know that 32 rounds is sort of my favorite number for stages, uh, for the number of rounds to be shot in a stage. Uh, or more at York, we frequently go over 32 rounds. Uh anyway, whatever the number was, if it was less than 32, and the guy matchworth, he was the match director at the time, he made a post on Facebook that we had to add some targets to this one particular stage to keep the new emperor happy. Um, that was the first time anybody ever used the word, and I don't know how it happened, but somehow it kind of stuck. And uh now we've been living with it for about three years. So that's that's the story. So uh blame or credit match for it.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

But you are not uh you're not opposed to using the title.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

No, not at all. I think it's pretty funny. All right. I would wonder where that came from.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

We're gonna cover a few mailbag questions. We're gonna talk to Russell about a couple of things tonight and just uh just keep it kind of free form and and we'll do that. So

NASO Discount And Liability Coverage

SPEAKER_01 4:45

uh a couple of announcements. The National Association of Sports Officials link is live. Uh that link was emailed to all of the certified range officials within USPSA, and that gives you a highly discounted membership in NASO. NASO is is an organization that covers officials for almost all well, I think they would cover any sporting event, right? Including shooting.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. They cover every, you know, everything. Uh, yeah, you could be a whole bunch of them that I never didn't even think about.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Right. You could be a uh badminton or a uh what's the thing with the curling official, and they would probably cover it. I mean, they cover officials, right? So officiating is officiating uh kind of regardless of the sport you have, and they have a lot of general interest educational things on their webpage. Uh the membership includes a digital uh subscription to their referee magazine and also to their uh news brief. So there's a lot of information that comes out of there. Some of it, well, most of it is not USPSA or shooting related, but there's a lot of uh relatable material in there about attitudes, about how to officiate, how to make sure you're doing the right thing, you know, to keep yourself trained up, etc. So there's a lot of good stuff you can get out of an NASO membership. The other good thing about it is you can get uh personal liability policy of a million dollars through them that's included in the membership. So uh there's a good uh a good bit of that. We have had some people ask about that in the past. Uh fortunately within USPSA, we haven't had anybody that's uh that I know of that's been physically assaulted after a match, although that happens in so many other sports, um, that has gotten sued because of a call they made or or anything like that. So but it's not a bad thing to have if that's if that's a concern of yours.

LMS Upgrade And Training Access

SPEAKER_01 6:49

So uh the other thing, the LMS experience, I'm gonna let Jody talk about that because I'm not uh up to speed with that right now.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Okay. Uh so after many years of waiting, we're finally updated to the current version of Moodle, which is the software we use for our learning system, our online stuff that people access for RO classes, CRO classes, uh, our range master students, and it's also where our um well the gun steel challenge endorsements are. So we have it, it's updated to the newest version. I'm working on getting all the materials transitioned. It's gonna be a phase transition. So after we get everything set, new classes, new RO CRO classes, uh will be under the new system. Classes that already exist will be on the old system. It's the same content, just the interfaces more modern. I think a little easier to use. Um and then going forward, um, endorsement students will be on the new system. And basically, hopefully by the end of the year, we can phase out the old LMS we were using. Um, and then once we get this this all transitioned, we're gonna work on our new endorsement courses that we've been talking about and have been getting pushed aside. But um, I do think the new LMS software is a little quite a bit more user-friendly as far as guiding people through the courses, and hopefully we'll get it list clearly what the requirements are to finish it and if they've met them all, each module. So um I went through it as a just a regular student the other day. I think it's gonna be a um better experience. Um, the other thing we're doing is we're transitioning to AI voices in the uh videos.

AI Narration For RO Videos

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Now I I love narrating, but I hated all the takes it took me to get a good narration.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Um so the RO and CRO courses for sure will be using the AI AI voice. We've already mentioned we had a very special narrator for the RO course, Mr. Britt Reynolds from the Grave, from Beyond the Grave. Um the I decided to use a different voice for the CRO course, just so I could tell which course, which video goes with which course. Um it's a female voice, not anyone famous. Um the evil movie villain female voice was tempting, but um I decided to go with something as interesting as Bert.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Anthony Hopkins for the Rangemaster stone.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, we don't have any videos. We might have to add some. Anyway, so that's coming. Um, a lot of our members, if you've already become uh RO, you're not gonna see it, but you might see it in the new endorsement. You're gonna see it in the new endorsement courses. Um as we get there. Uh the nice thing is with the AI voices, we can go in, just update the audio and update. I think it'll ultimately make it easier and quicker to update our seminars as the rules change.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Um, probably in January, February. I'll get to test that theory.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Well, I mean, you know, even just simple changes um to the endorsement courses. I mean, this year we have very little changes in Steel Calend and Multigin, and it was most of a Saturday to get the changes put in. So it's this will be much better.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah. So we're working on it, and I have a whole bunch of videos I've shot. I think I have some good stuff um to edit, and I know there's like been a couple of videos sent in to edit that um I'll work on those and we'll either replace or insert them somewhere at some point.

SPEAKER_05 10:34

But yeah, no, I'm excited. Um I think it's gonna be better. Good. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I

Rulebook Search And Embedded Media

SPEAKER_01 10:42

do have one other announcement. The um the board approved the funding for uh tier one media to shoot some short explanatory videos that we're gonna embed into our digital rules. Um if you've noticed the the rule book system has changed on USPSA. It's more of a it's a more user-friendly system. It's it's not a book. Uh, rule book doesn't necessarily have to be a book. Uh we used that format for a long time though, but Rick Brussel came up with uh an idea to put it in where you could go directly to a rule number, search it, do whatever you need to do. Um I like it. I use it quite a bit now. I do too. Yeah, no. So we're gonna put some we're gonna put a few little very short video segments in for some of the less understood rules that may need a little bit of visual explanation, etc. There will also be some audio uh inserts into that, so not all of it's gonna be video, but I think that's gonna help expand people's understanding of the rules as we go. So that project's coming up. Um, I would look for that to hit the rules in 2027. Uh depending on how much time I have to work with uh tier one. Tier one, if you don't know, that's shooting USA, that's John Scouton's company. Uh they're the ones that have done all our NRI tips videos. And we're gonna also include some NRI tips videos in that as well. So we're gonna get all that done. Uh hopefully it expands the rules knowledge and and helps people keep up with their continuing education and the rules.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

And yeah, and also eventually this year we will update the practice score videos to practice score version two. Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

So or whatever happened wrong by the time we get there.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

So all right. Well, let's in no more announcements. Russell, any announcements? Uh nothing from me. Thank you. Um

Steel Challenge Backers And Contrast

SPEAKER_03 12:37

we had a we had uh some some uh somebody send in some pictures of some steel steel talent stage with an explanation that they have some they set up some of their steel talent stages in bays that have uh a little bit on the low burns that are a little bit on the low side, and they're very concerned about um bullet misses to the plates leaving the range. Um so they put up some black uh some sort of barrier behind the plates to uh catch the bullets, but basically big bullet traps. And they wanted to know if that was okay. And after some internal discussion, the problem is it the presentation of I think what was it, there the two plates, I think, that you had on the picture, one picture they sent us. The presentation of those two white plates against that very stark black background was very different than the other three plates against the natural terrain. And that's you know, with Steel Challenge, we're trying to have the same presentation of all the plates. So um I believe we decided that if you're gonna do that, you need to change the backdrop on all the plates on this on that stage, right? Or on the whole match.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

That's correct. Um, I mean, at the bare minimum, it should be done by stage, but it should be I mean, in my opinion, it should be the entire match. If you're gonna put black backers behind white plates and then leave the rest of the plates to contrast against your very light sand colored background, I've been on that range, um then that's a huge contrast difference. And I think you should probably be if you're gonna put something up behind them to improve the contrast, there's nothing in the rules that keeps you from doing that, but you gotta be consistent with it, right? And I mean uh the whole range is that same sand colored backstop. So uh if you're gonna put one stage that's all black, I mean it makes it a lot easier to focus on the plate and oh yeah and easier to find it. And then the other ones are are not, then that's a problem. I mean, the rules allow you to paint them a different color if it's snowy, right? So you could paint them orange or you could paint them blue or whatever to contrast with the snow, but you wouldn't paint two plates a contrasting color and leave the rest alone. Right. So just sort of as a logical follow, you should put I get it, they're trying to keep stuff from leaving the range because they've got, you know, some crew's going with houses, etc. around there, but um you still you still should be consistent with it on every plate on every stage.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

What what is the material of these deflectors?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Uh it's steel. I'm not sure what's actually, I don't think it's steel behind the plate. I think it's uh it's a a blackish material, like it could be Celitex or that fiberboard or something, but the top and the sides are steel.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

It kind of looked like those rubber stall mats.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

And a lot of people hang like rubber belting or that rubber stall mat in front of a steel, a lighter gauge steel plate that's a deflector to the ground. The mat takes most of the abuse and rim fire, you know, most rim fire barely penetrates it. Um and the steel belting that a lot of people get that's uh basically it's agricultural uh processing waste. Um that stuff has usually has steel core in it, and bolts just don't go through. Um, really. Rifle will, but not not handguns. Um and so I that's kind of what it looked like to me is it was black stall mats hanging in front of some sort of a steel deflector. But you know, there's nothing to say. If you had to put black, if you had good berms behind the rest of the plates, you know, you could put black cellatex, black cardboard, you know, black OSB, what you know, whatever, just you know, take keep that contrast the same. Um and you know, and I I think that solves the problem. The I'm they said that the the deflectors they were using were expensive and they didn't want to do it behind all of them for that reason. And I get that. But all all we're concerned about here is just the same visual presentation. So, you know, for years in Multigun, we've put black supply, you know, OSB painted black behind steel out at distance to make it easier to actually pick it out from the sagebrush or the light colored dirt or whatever. Uh that's them and that's been done for years.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Because those targets will be gray at some point because yeah, because nobody goes out and paints those. No. So it's just a consistency thing. I mean, it does not, it would not have to be the exact same deflector material, whatever they're using. But if you're gonna put black behind them, put black behind everything, I don't I don't care what you use, it's just gonna be black. Yep, or green or whatever the hell you're gonna use.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Okay.

Springfield Kuna Is Not PCC

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Um, and then here a couple weeks ago, um, we got a rash who questions about the Springfield Cuna. And um depending on, I mean, I grew up in southern Idaho and there's a town named named spelled the same way, and one of our RMIs lives there. Um, we called it Cuna. And I've heard it called every variation you can think of, but the natives down there called it cuna, so that's what I'm gonna call it. But anyway, we got a lot of a lot of people asking about it, and Troy, you had to make a you had to uh come forth with your opinion.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Right. So Springfield markets this as a pistol. Uh they call it a personal defense weapon, but their literature also describes it as a pistol with a brace. Um, it is indeed a pistol. I mean, it's I don't want to go into the whole uh flux argument again, but I mean, as it's marketed directly from Springfield, if you buy a box stock cuna, it's it's not a PCC. It can't be used in PCC because it's sold as a pistol. It's uh it's got a brace on it, not a stock. Uh it's got all of the characteristics of a of a handgun with a forearm and a s and a brace or an extension added to the back of it. So the Springfield Cuna out of the box is not a PCC and won't qualify for PCC. And that doesn't mean somebody can't make some modifications to it, which will probably cause a whole nother set of problems, and we'll be in the same boat we were in with the with the flux uh raider. But uh I mean I I'm gonna say it in my opinion that flux raider is not a PCC either. I don't care what you do to it. So uh, but that was not my decision, that was a board decision. So uh that's it for that one. And Russell, you got an opinion on that?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

I've never heard of it. I'm looking at it, and I guess you go with what they're marketing it as.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Right. It's similar to some of the companies that are selling guns with compensators that are calling them um expansion chambers and you know gas redirection devices, etc. Compensator is a compensator, right? Yeah. So I don't care what the marketing term is, but I mean if you're gonna call it a call it a pistol, then it's a pistol.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Yeah. Yes, it yes, indeed. All right. Next

Magazine Gauge Rule And Rebuild Option

SPEAKER_03 20:21

question. Um had uh competitor send in video. Um he was at a match, and his magazine did not fit the magazine gauge, and he didn't he was not allowed to take advantage of uh appendix C to number 47, sub subsection B, which says that the competitor may uh r disassemble their magazine and reassemble it on the theory that maybe they had you know misassembled assembled it incorrectly. You're not allowed to swap out parts, you're not allowed to do things. Um but or there's grit between the tube and the best base pad. Yeah. So I mean, there's a the tolerances on magazines and magazine base pads are not all that high. And so there's lots of room for slop, and especially if you're running the ragged edge um anyway, then it might not take much to to get that uh to be over over length. Or if you didn't get, you know, your mag base pad is only on one of the rails on one side of the tube, um, that could make it a little extra long.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Or you somehow got the spring into the spring between the base pad and the tube.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Yeah. There's lots of ways to there's lots of ways to screw up putting magazines back together.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

Well, especially when a lot of them are really, really close.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Yeah. Um, you know, and and so the the operative phrase there is May, and that's Um it there's no demand that if your magazine doesn't fit the gauze, that you have to take it apart. Um I think we would prefer that it be taken apart in front of the chronograph officer so it can be an observed process. Well, it has to be if they want to if they want to make use of this rule. Right. Otherwise, we don't know what you did to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Um and you know, it's it's or if they're behind, they can call the RM to come supervise. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

You know, and it's it's more common than one would think that people with uh the old 2011 magazines that are you know have extended base pads on their 140s and the TERT base pad on their 170s, and they've got them all apart and they're cleaning them and they put them all back together and they put the extended base pad on their 170. And now that doesn't fit, it's it won't it won't fit the gauge by a long ways. Um, you know, yeah, we're not gonna let you wander off and fix that um because that is the magazine that you were using. So um that's the magazine you presented. So once again, this is one of those things where it's a really good idea just to have your own magazine gauge. And they're not that expensive, and or just use learn how to use a ruler. Um, it's shown in the rulebook how to do that and major magazines.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Um so part of this, you know, this is at Washington State match. We had a staff match, there was a competitor. I had very I had from the description of the chrono officer, it was a totally different mag, but then the next day he was coming back, he looked up the rules and was like, Well, I took the mag base pad off and put it on, right? Now it's right, but it was a totally different mag from what I got told. I don't know. I wasn't there for the first one part of it. Um but you know, this is a rule that some chrono officers, if they haven't kept up the rules, may not know about.

unknown 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

This is a new rule this year.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Right. Uh and then that you know, we were talking about the May, who decides, right? Right. Um, to me, if a competitor has failed the med gauge and I was chrono officer, I would offer to let them take it apart in front of me and put it back together. If they did not chose not to do it, okay. But I would want to make sure that they had the opportunity to try to stay in the div the division they entered the match in. Um it sucks when you have to go shoot your karioptics gun in an open minor. Well, that's how I got classified. Not that I got bumped. I should have done it intentionally. But um you know, so you know, when I know Evans was the one who proposed this rules change. And his, you know, his reasoning was it was to help keep people where they they registered, right? Um, because yeah, the outside of the mag may look clean, but there may be some grit in there that you just that's stuck in a spot where, you know, like usually the base pad compresses a little bit against the tube, and you drop it enough times and don't obsessively clean it like you're supposed to. There may be a little rock in there that you know prevents that. So you know, one, I think we need to make sure chrono officers know about this rule. And then we need to know competitors, make sure competitors know about the rule so that they can um advocate for themselves. Now it is the current question of the month, which oh I just realized tomorrow I need a new question. Um but it will be the results will be posting well, it'll be Thursday this week, so the podcast will come out already after the yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Well, but it'll be after the first of the podcast will come out after the first of the month.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

The new question will be up.

SPEAKER_05 25:50

Yeah. So this is all gonna get explained in a in a on the blog as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Um this is one of those rules that we added to try to benefit shooters.

unknown 26:05

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

And if you're really worried about failing a magazine gauge, shoot revolver.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Or buy a mag gauge, like that one said Justin.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Oh, shooting revolver is more fun. Although it's cheaper to buy a mag gauge.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, you don't want to spend uh $35 or so at EGW for the official mag gauge. Um, I think there's some places, uh DAA maybe that you can buy a uh an IPSC mag gauge.

SPEAKER_06 26:32

Yeah, but be careful with that one.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah, it's plastic, but it's and it's Ipsic sized, it's not USPSA size. So if you pass that one, you're gonna pass ours.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

But yeah, well, double alpha that one at a match. Double alpha also sells a metal one that has a little plate you put in for IpsyC. Oh, I do know someone who's used that on the USTPSA version of it to check his gate his mags, and then he he he was before it Nashville was like, Hey, can you check them with your gauge? Yeah, a lot of his mags did not make it with my gauge.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

So just use cox. Even the plastic one has that little piece that you can switch around from 170 to 171.25.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Oh yeah.

unknown 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

I don't know. I've got two or three that uh Joey Joey Ricasa has handed me over the years because that's that's his trademark, it's his calling card. He gives you a plastic mag gauge with his name on it.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

So uh I've I've taken two, so another way to get a magazine gauge is if if your uh if your magazine doesn't fit in a gauge at a match where I'm uh working at Rangemaster, if I get caught the chrono and and your magazine fails, then I'll give you a magazine gauge um as a gift and as a memento for getting moved to a different division.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

A kind of gauge.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

The EGW gauge. So EGW is uh an Area 8 company. Uh they're in Pennsylvania. So they they sponsor a lot of matches in in Area 8. And one of the ways they sponsor matches is by giving away uh gift certificates that you can use for uh items that are manufactured by EGW. So, you know, they give gift certificates and you can get a free magazine gauge or two, depending on the size of the certificate that you have.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

I gotcha. That's not a bad idea. That's a good idea, Russell.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, well, I I stole an idea from Mark Evans, uh, another range master in Area 8. So he gave me that idea. I've been using it ever since he told me about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Cool. That's great. Yeah, just to just to make sure that we're clear, we're not the the rule specifically disallows telescoping magazine uh base pads. So we're all we're talking about here is a little bit of slop in your base pads, not a telescoping uh base pad. So yeah, like a millimeter or two. A millimeter or two that you know, because you're right. There's no the tolerance on those isn't as tight as you might think they would be. Um the most common thing we see though is people that put them on backwards. Yep. Yes and then show up at Chrono and it didn't fit, and then they go, Oh, I put my mag gauge on backwards. And yeah, you know, I I can't I can't work chrono anymore because I I can't I have no filter when I'm talking about stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Well, yeah, or they they take all the mags apart at once and interchange the parts. Yeah, right. And there sometimes it's very specific which base pad and which tube go together.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah or I now I haven't seen this for a few years, but they also get the um Dawson used to sell their SNL base pads.

SPEAKER_04 29:23

Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And I roll up and Chrono guy hands me the mag and it has SNL, and I'm like, you know what that stands for? And they're like, Saturday Night Live. I'm like, no, no, no. Sometimes not legal.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I think they still get a mag gauge and check that before you came. Yeah. And whatever you do, don't pull that practice mag that you've never used in the match out of your range bag and give that to Chrono. Yeah. Sure. Because I've had several people get bumped open for a mag they didn't even use in the match.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

And and don't trust that the magazines you just got. Yes. Even if they're manufacturer, they're OEM magazines. Yes. Um, there's a very large OEM that a lot of people shoot um in our divisions, and they're they had a run of magazines that did not fit the gauge. And so, and they've acknowledged that and they sent, I mean, there's I think they actually were sending out replacement base pads um to folks that had them. But you know, if if it can happen to one really large OEM, it can happen to any of them. So, you know, when you get new magazines, throw them in your mag gauge if you're planning on competing with that with that.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

I mean, the mag gauge is what, 35 bucks, 3540? Um you know, at most go in with your friends. Yeah, you don't use it all the time, but you know, or make sure your club has one so you can let people borrow it and check their gear. Um, you know, if you you're club at a club match sometime, you know, before your area match or nationals, pull out the USPSA box and the mag gauge if your club has one and do some spot checks.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Right. And never ever carry it in your carry-on luggage through TSA. Yeah, they don't like that. It will not make the plane.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yeah. You're gonna lose it.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

I did you could even though it has no two 90-degree square surfaces on it where you could actually hook on to something, uh, they still consider that something you might be able to take the plane apart with.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Yeah, they I mean they weren't even calling it a weapon because I mean it's a big chunk of aluminum. You could actually probably do some damage with it. They said it looked like a tool and you weren't allowed to fly with tools, so that's it was yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

But I mean, uh it is a tool of sorts, but it's not you can't hook it onto anything. There's no it's it just won't fit. Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

So, anywho, um, yeah, all right, enough about that stuff.

Non-Continuous Shooting Area Proposal

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Let's see. Next one. Um, under rule 1.1.5.5, would it be legal to create a non-continuous shooting area and then declare in the WSB that the shooter must stay within the fault lines for the entire course of fire, except when leaving one shooting area and entering the other? For example, maybe you wanted to have a shaky bridge or something without the stepping up to it being inside the shooting area, but then not allow shortcuting in the rest of the stage. Jody, I think you unwound this one.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

I said no, because if you look at the rule 1155, it basically gives you a penalty for every time you leave and and enter in a different area. So even if you had like a hallway shooting area, there's gonna be someone who runs around to the side and steps in or something, right? So it's just gonna lead to arguments and headaches. Um and besides a shaky bridge, you can have a continuous shooting area across the bridge with steps down into the new shooting area. I think it would just uh if you want to have multiple shooting areas, don't use 1155. Yep. Use props to control movement. But 1155 was intended for stages where you know clubs, either new clubs or at level one, you know, a higher level matches where they just want to prevent people shortcutting.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Or indoors.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Um but it's not supposed to be used to I don't know. This this is just gonna lead to misapplying the rules.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

I think I think the the point at first was or the justification was kind of to prevent having to have too many walls, etc. for the people that were short on stuff. But this is a good time to to put Russell on the spot a little bit because this was a rule that Russell proposed.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, this this rule has Russell's name associated with it.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

And then and then brought it into the higher level matches as well. Now, we haven't seen too many actual problems with it at higher level matches. There's some people that have done things that are dumb, um, and and essentially are traps like putting a a stomp box outside the shooting area and invoking one one five five so that if you step on a stomp box and then and then advance outside, then they're gonna hit you with one per shot after that, which is dumb, right? Yeah, that's just the basis for this question, a shaky bridge. If you're gonna do a shaky bridge and you want to have a separate shooting area on top of it, then don't use one one five five. I mean, they can't run around that bridge, they gotta get on it if you set it up right, right? Yeah, I'll let Russell address this a little bit and then we'll talk a bit a little bit about rules, philosophy, et cetera.

Why 1.1.5.5 Exists

SPEAKER_02 34:43

All right. So, yeah, a couple years ago when when we first introduced it for level one matches, uh, I've I've been running a level one match for a while. And to me, it's just uh a way to make uh sort of a different style of a stage. So some new thing that you can add to a stage, a new challenge uh that you can give to the shooters and they can address it. And the year that we used it for level one matches only, I used it a number of times at the matches that I run. Um and it worked pretty well, you know. We had a few people who got caught with it, including uh one world champion, an IpsyC world champion, who would come to our level one match sometimes and he he wasn't paying attention to the stage briefing, so he got hit with 11 procedurals on a stage, um, which is funny, of course, because this is basically an IPSIC style rule. Um but it went very well for the first year, and uh some of the other area directors agreed uh that we should have added to uh all levels of matches as an option for the match director. So if you don't like this rule, if you're a match director and you hate this rule, the the good news is you never have to use it. Um but if you do like it, if you think that you know there's a way that you can add a challenge to a stage, I think it's a pretty good rule to have. And I I know some of the higher level matches that I've heard about this year do intend to use uh 1155 on at least one or more stages. Uh I shot the Buckeye Blast uh a couple of weeks ago, and they had one stage that had uh 1155 in the briefing.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah. I've I've sanctioned quite a few uh recently that are using at least one or two stages with 1155. But again, I kind of look at them how the stage is intended to be run. Are they doing anything crazy with putting something outside where you got to go step on it? And you know, you know as well as I do, if if you're running a stage fast, you're gonna stomp that stomp box and you might step past it outside the fault rods, and that's gonna hang you up, right? So put the stomp box inside or or whatever, just don't use one one five five on that particular stage.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Yeah, I agree. It's not a good idea to track people by doing something like that, putting a stomp pad outside or you know, having a different shooting area that you somehow have to get to. Um, and another consideration for match directors is if you're gonna use 1155, the start position for the stage should be inside the shooting area, not outside the shooting area. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Now we have done that in the past under under Ipsy rules. You remember that in uh in Phoenix, right? At Rio Salado. And Eric Griffel was all been out of shape about it. And I said, well, Eric, if you can show me in the rule book where it says that I can't do that, then I'll fix it. But there's nothing in the IpsyC rules that says you can't. It's not necessarily a great idea, but in the IPSC rules, now they don't do it, right? They they would never consider doing that. But uh there's nothing in the rule book that says you can't. And that particular stage was sanctioned and approved by Jurgen Taggy, the IPSC.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Yeah, it was it was actually last year's Mass Troy. It was in the party. Yeah, you're right. So it it was submitted and approved as it was on the ground. I think it was an oversight in the approval because IPSIC would never approve it if they had called, you know, if they noticed it. Uh but it in my mind, even in USPSA, it's not a good idea to have a stage that says you must remain within the shooting area for the entire course of fire. Uh, meanwhile, the person is starting outside the shooting area.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Because we always know there's gonna be at least one person who forgets to step into the shooting area before they start shooting.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Right. So in the the Ipsy wording of their rule is slightly different than our wording, too. So the IPSIC rule is a shortcut rule. So starting outside, I agree, uh, you're not really in violation of the rule if you start outside. But and and USTSA wording is you must remain within the fault lines for the entire course of fire. So starting outside seems to be a non-starter.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Right. So

Rules Philosophy And IPSC Alignment

SPEAKER_01 38:36

that's a good lead into something that I kind of wanted to bring up. And and uh this is not uh it's not a criticism, it's not a personal attack, but you and I talk about rules quite a bit, and sometimes we have a pretty uh uh vastly different opinion on how a rule should work, right? So what I'm kind of interested in is I mean, to me it seems like, and there's nothing wrong with it, that you your object is to kind of simplify rules to to get them to the point where they're not hard to understand, and they're not super complicated, et cetera. Would you say that's true? Would you give us a little bit of your philosophy on rules, et cetera? Because you are a member of the rules committee, so uh you obviously have some influence there.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Well, to the extent that we have complicated rules that are hard for people to understand, yeah. Of course, we should make them easy for everybody to understand. Um in general, I think they are. Another thing that I would sort of I wouldn't mind doing, I'm not saying that I want the IpsyC rules and USPSA rules to be completely in unison, but there are some IpsyC rules that that I kind of like, uh, including the you know 1155 that we have added as an option. Um I'm a big fan of the IPSIC make ready rules where you can't uh drive fire or take a sight picture. Um I I think people generally speaking at IpsIC matches make ready a lot faster. And in USPSA, uh a lot of people have this sort of routine that they go through, and it's sometimes a very timely routine. And, you know, when you scale these things out to 100 people at a match or 700 people at a match, you start adding a lot of minutes to a day. You know, if everybody takes an extra 30 or 40 seconds to make ready, uh just multiply that out by the number of people that you have in the match times the number of stages that are in the match. And you can really extend the match quite a bit uh just at the make ready. So I wouldn't I wouldn't mind, you know, making some uh sort of uh unification of the Ipsic and USPSA rules in some areas. Um but otherwise the the rules are already 95% the same. Um so it's it's not like I'm trying I'm breaking new ground here. They're already very, very similar.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Yeah. Well, you're not alone in that, in that uh regard. There's a lot of people that complain about, oh, this guy's taking too long to make ready. We need to put a limit on it. And so my response is generally, well, what limit would you put? And they're like, uh, 10 seconds. Well, uh, 10 seconds is pretty short. Uh 30 seconds might be a little more realistic, maybe a minute, right? I mean, still Calvin's gives you a minute to make ready. I don't see too many people taking their whole minute. I think any limit you put on it, and uh was it you that mentioned it to me or or somebody else that what's the best thing they did with uh with baseball was they put a pitch clock.

unknown 41:24

The pitch clock, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yeah. So that sped the game up quite a bit, right? A lot. I mean, college ball, I was watching the World Series, the college world series, there were several calls where they said, Oh, you exceeded the pitch clock. Now, I don't I'm not sure that there's a penalty for that. I didn't see them do anything with it, but they just said no pitch, right? So he couldn't throw the ball, he had to start over, which is to me, is if you're gonna have a pitch clock, then there has to be a consequence for not pitching. Not just not just you get to do it over, because now you've wasted that whole 25 seconds or whatever, right? So it turns into 50 seconds.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Yeah, in the majors, it's it's if the pitcher violates it, it's a

Make Ready Speed And Rituals

SPEAKER_03 42:04

ball to the batter. If the batter violates it, it's a strike.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Okay. So there's a consequence.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Yeah, there is a consequence. Um, okay. And that's we we've had it. I've you know, I attend a minor uh an A-ball team in Spokane, and it's been down in the minors for a couple years before it made it to the majors, and it was knocking 40 minutes to an hour off the games.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yeah. So I mean, I'm I'm not opposed to that at all. I think that there's so many people that kind of game the the IPSC start thing. Uh some of them have learned to they practice their draw really quickly. And I've I've told several of them. I've worked a lot of IPSC matches in Canada and a couple of other places, and you'll say make ready or load and make ready, and then they reach down and snatch that gun out of the holster like you know, like they were starting a course. And I'm I'm thinking to myself, that's gonna be the next thing that IPSC says you can't do is practice your draw that way, right? Right. Um but they'll stand there and visualize their stage, they're they're doing everything they can do without taking a site picture, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah. The thing I worry about with adding a time limit to our make ready. So, you know, let's say whatever you make at 40 seconds or 60 seconds. There's certainly some people now who take less time than that. And if you give them a minute, they they might extend it to a minute. They'll say, Well, now you're giving me a minute. I I think I would rather not add a time limit. It's just something that somebody else is gonna have to track. Um, and it's not gonna be easy to track for us. Um, how do you track it? How do you penalize it?

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Uh you need to add a add the function into practice score when the ROB's make ready, the scorekeeper touches a button.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah, it's it's it's gonna be very hard to do, hard to implement. So in my mind, if you wanted to speed it up, uh just you go with the Ipsyc make ready routine, which is no side picture allowed, no drive fire allowed. That would probably speed things up. A bit. That that would speed it up.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yeah. I mean, now that being said, Russell, I'm one of the people who takes doesn't take forever to make ready. Um, even if they set it as a minute, I'm not going to take the minute.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, I'm a big fan of I shoot quite a bit with Manny Bragg, and Manny Bragg has the best make ready that you'll ever see. Uh, he just loads the gun, he doesn't do a sight picture at all, loads the gun and then he shoots, and of course, normally he shoots very well. So it's it's not that you know his one-minute make ready is necessary to shoot well. Recently I saw JJ Ricazo on a video. Uh, I think it was shooting carry optics. Um, so he's got a dot on the gun. He didn't even take a sight picture with a dot. He just loaded the gun, put it back in the holster. It took about 10 seconds. Um, so JJ and Manny Bragg are my new uh examples to give to people for a quick make ready that doesn't affect your shooting.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Usually the super squad is pretty good. Yeah, I was always check my dots. Now that I shoot dots, I do at least make sure the dots are on.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yeah, exactly. A lot of people could do that. So the whole visualization thing that could also be done while the stage, you know, the person in front of you who shot while they're being scored. There's there's been a rule that said you have to you have to do the continuous walkthrough for the entire time that the other person's scores are being taken care of. And then when they say make ready, then all of a sudden you get yourself mentally ready to sit take uh to shoot the stage.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Right.

SPEAKER_05 45:21

Yeah, but you know, how should I say this? We have some members who think that that three-minute visualization is gonna make or break their stage.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

It's a routine. Yeah, I don't know. We the US US PSA people seem to do pretty well with the world shoot uh where a lot of that stuff just sort of isn't allowed or tolerated. So I'm not really sure it's the the make ready routine that's keeping people in the game.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

No, I I agree with you, it isn't. Um and they can do it other ways, but it's all part of the let me put this way it's usually not the super squad who has the long make-ready's it's the well there are there are some of them that do. There are some of them, but predominantly it's not them. When I've worked matches, it's the um the junior super squad.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

And then there's some people who they have like a three-minute make-ready ritual. I'm like, oh, okay, they're gonna be good. And they're probably a C class, D class shooter. It was like their visualization did not work out for them.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah, they're not always aligned.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

No, I mean I I guess, you know, I have a very I load my gun, I shoot the stage, but yeah, I should have my stage plan already finalized in my head before the make ready commands given. Um sometimes I don't, um, and then I just shoot the stage. Or the neuralizer wipes it for my brain.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

So just go with that default stage plan, see target, shoot target.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah, rock and roll. I'm gonna walk around here and hunt and peck till I speak to everything. Sometimes twice. So the the philosophy behind it is you know that you should be ready to go when you get up there, right? We've we've let you walk the stage, we've let you walk the stage as the on-deck shooter, or you could use that time to do your visualization or whatever. I mean, I get it. Um to remove that uh would be uh a step change and and USPSA philosophy and operations, but I mean it could be done. It's uh it could be done at the end of the world because as Russell points out at at World Shoots and other IPSC matches that our competitors go to, they don't do it. And I mean it doesn't seem to change their performance at all.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

It wouldn't, I don't think it would be the end of the world, but it would be it would be hard to you'd have to make sure the ROs were gonna enforce it. Yeah, right, to make sure consistently to make sure that everyone starts doing it. So I I'm not so worried about it being enforced properly, like at nationals or area matches. It would be the lower level matches. Yeah, just to be clear. I'm not saying they're not capable. I'm not I'm not saying they're not capable. I'm just saying they have to someone has to step up and make sure it gets enforced.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't want your listeners to to think that this is coming up in USBSA. So you know, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 48:22

We're just discussing it.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Yeah, so this is my opinion. This in fact is that Troy and I are both on the rules committee, but this in fact has not been discussed within the rules committee. This is just an idea that I have. It's something I've been thinking about for a while, um, but I haven't even brought it up to the rules committee. But that's that's sort of how far off it is.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Well, a few years ago we brought up putting the one-minute time limit in USPSA, like we have in Steel Challenge, and it didn't go far.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

So, no, yeah, don't don't freak out because we're talking about it. We're just talking about it. There's been nothing proposed to the rules committee, although I do have a note here, so you know we get a lot of emails.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

We do get a lot of emails that you know, if every once in a while people being like, can they add the one minute limit, you know, to you USPSA competition matches? It's like, let your area director know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yep. All right, let's let's uh if if we're done with that, let's move on. Um

Appendix Carry And Shirt Grabs

SPEAKER_03 49:21

we had a competitor write in that he was uh competing in a I believe level two match. Um and he was doing appendix inside the waistband uh with his handgun. And the start position required wrist below belt, and he was prevented from gra holding on to his cover garment, which was t-shirt polo, who knows. It was a t-shirt. Um, but he was and you know, even though his wrists were below his belt in doing that, he was told he was not allowed to hang on to his cover garment. That there's no rule about that, folks. It does not say that in the rules.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

I mean, if the WSB said you can't be grabbing your shirt, okay, yeah. But the WSB just said wrist below belt. So the RO told him he had couldn't, he was like had his fingers on grasping the hem of the shirt, t-shirt. It was a pretty long t-shirt. And so it's like, you know, if his wrist wasn't below belt, the RO should have told him get your wrist below the belt. It's probably hard to tell with the shirt on there, but um you know, yeah, you can't it's the typical must be wrong. Well, it just it's you know, yeah, appendix inside the waistband's different. So yeah, we must it's kind of like PCC. There's still people who every once in a while say, Well, can we have the PCC shooter start unloaded and the handgun shooter start loaded? No. They just they just, you know, there's this PCC dislike, right? So now appendix is.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Somebody a while ago, uh years ago, made a a neighbor flag uh device that sent something, you know, had a message on it and said the PCC is not not a crime. Yeah. Um and some some individual uh crossed off the the knot. Can you imagine? I mean who would do such a thing?

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Uh did you have to use a sharpie or did you use something else?

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah. I know who's probably John's PCC, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:55

I'm being attacked again on the MROI podcast. I mean, I'll have a response for you next time.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

I want to know about that.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

I mean, at least use your pocket knife and carve it off, and you know, it's permanently gone.

SPEAKER_04 52:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:15

Oh my. All right, let's see. The next

Flagged PCC Muzzle And The Shoulder

SPEAKER_03 52:19

one's a little bit long, but I'll go ahead and read it anyway. Um it has it speaking of PCC, would you please provide clarification into the reasonably vertical position for the PCC while standing at Make Ready, unloaded and flagged during a stage walkthrough or walking around? Most of the PCC competitors I choose matches with hold their PCEs directly vertically upwards for all situations. I have observed in a few matches where a PCC competitor has laid the PCC on top of the shoulder or slightly over the top of the shoulder while walking around and also while waiting for the make ready. Recently, an RODQ'd a PCC competitor because at the end of the make ready position, the muzzle was rearward past the 180 vertically upward position, and the call was eventually reversed due to the three-foot roll. Um, I'm not sure which three-foot roll that would be. Uh, but does that include the staff in the three feet area? Um, the way I interpret the role is that as long as the PCC is unloaded and flagged, uh, and everyone is at least three feet behind the PCC, it is okay for them to hold or lay the muzzle at or over the top of the shoulder. I just want to make the right call, and there seems to be a lot of confusion because the muzzle is still rearward of the vertical 180. Also, loaded or unloaded if the RO is directly behind the competitor during the make ready due to stage limitations and this occurs, what happens there? I've seen this happen at a match. Yes, I like PCC competitors and shoot with them regularly, so I want to have the correct information.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

So I think we should clarify that this wasn't like laying horizontally across the shoulder, it was just leaning against the shoulder. Well, and it's but it's you know, we so the muzzle and we have so the muzzle was past the 180.

SPEAKER_03 54:02

Yeah, we have thought for years that it with handgun, if you point a handgun, loaded handgun, during course of fire and you're moving and you point it vertically and you break the muzzle rearward of the 180, that's a 180 violation.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

And so I think they're kind of they're trying to apply that to a PCC. This is an unloaded flagged PCC. Before make ready. Before make ready. So this is these are different conditions um than a loaded piece, you know, a loaded PCC ready to go. And you know, the three-foot rule applies to carts, not and and handguns. And handguns. But not to P. I mean, if you if you want to take the analogy that a flagged PCC, unloaded flagged PCC is analogous to a handgun, then I guess you could make the stretch that that rule would apply, but that's not really it's not equitable.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yeah. It's not something I would deque you for if it's if it's unloaded and flagged. Now, if if they say make ready and you take the flag out, then we're treating that like a drawn handgun, right? Right. Uh so then muzzle direction, etc. etc. But I know very few people that do that with that gun on their shoulder and pointing wherever. I mean, you take it off your shoulder, do your thing. The the main thing about carbines is regardless of whether it's flagged or not, we don't want you sweeping anybody. We don't want you treating it like a broomstick just because it's flagged. And that that was a valid concern when we initiated the division because we had a lot of people we thought would be coming in from the the three-gun nation uh uh realm and and other uh, I don't like the word outlaw, but other different disciplines that treated a flag gun like it was nothing, right?

SPEAKER_06 55:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

So it was kind of important that we that we really stuck with the can't sweep anybody with it. I mean, it's the same if you're walking around with it, uh, you know, uh flagged, etc., uh and you're and you're sweeping your legs, we don't care. If you're sweeping somebody else, that's a problem, even if it is flagged, right? Right. Uh and I think we covered this on a previous podcast. No, you can't rest the damn thing on your toe, right? It's not a trap. It ain't trap or skeet, right? So you can't do that with it. But I mean, in this case, staff in the three feet area, I don't really get what all he was talking about. But in it, I don't think in any way, shape, or form this would be a DQ if that gone was unloaded and flagged, right?

SPEAKER_05 56:47

Yeah, because before make ready. No.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

I think it's just there's a lot of confusion. Like, you know, um I mean there is a blog post about reasonably vertical, but I don't know because of this question. Um but people get all the now shape, you know. So before make ready, a competitor can stand at the like the start position with their flag PCC held vertical. Fine. While people are downrange, that's cool. After range is clear, they can hold their flag PCC with muzzle up or down, whichever uh the range requires, and walk around and watch their targets being scored. You know, they don't have to go flag it or bag it immediately or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

So I find it funny on in steel challenge matches that they're everybody is uh I mean it does save a little bit of time unless you're gonna go get it at the cyborg and and walk up there with a flag, but most people keep it in the bag till they see that. Yes, and I'm like, why do you do that? Yeah, you know, you could go do it, you could take it off your car to take it out of the thing over at the sideber and be ready here to go. And I'm like, oh no, no, I it's not possible. Yeah, we're not changing that culture.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yeah, so even though it would be quicker, but a lot part of it is a lot of people for long guns store their their mags in their range with their bag too.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Then they have no way of carrying their mags to the start position.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

So it it really is a big difference culturally between USPSA and Steel Challenge. And in Steel Challenge, nearly a hundred percent of the long gun people bring their gun to the line in a bag, and it's the opposite in USPSA. Nearly a hundred percent of the people come to the line with a gun in their hand.

SPEAKER_03 58:36

Yep. And some of those people are the same people, shooting two different sports, acting two different ways. So yeah, well.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

I mean, I kind of do it about 50-50 and still challenge. Depends on the stage, depends on where I'm shooting, what I where I put my stuff or whatever. But usually in USPSA, I always unbag it the berm and bring it up there ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Almost 100% of the time when I come to the line in USPSA, my gun is in a holster. Where it should be.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

Oh, you and George would get along. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Oh no, George, George shoots his PCC, but only in steel challenge.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

Only steel challenge, yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

That he talks about.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

He will never shoot in a USPSA competition that he says. So he says.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

He will when he gets old enough to not be able to run around, do whatever. So but yeah, Russell, I mean, I agree with you. Uh most of the people I saw at WSSC bring their guns up in a bag regardless, and and for various reasons. Um the funny thing is, I usually have mine in a scabbard and I just bring it up and drop it on the ground in front of me when they say make ready. And I've had a couple of ROs go, oh my god, your bag. I'm like, so I I kicked it downrange a little bit more one time and they were freaking out. I'm like, it's just a damn bag, man. I don't care about that bag.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:03

You could have a brand new one for $13 on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Dirty. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Because I think you and I use the same scabbards, and I think that's they're about like $13, $18.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:14

They're not, and they're really nice. They're actually really nice for what they are. Okay.

Cameras After Are You Ready

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

Uh next. At our club match last Saturday, one of the on one of the stages, I forgot to start my hat camera. The at the make during the make ready command. I was given the are you ready and then remembered the camera and reached up to turn it on. I got the standby and then shot the stage without issue. After the stage, the RO told me that I should not have started my camera after being given the are you ready command. And that could have been an issue. I don't see anything in 8.3 that says I did anything wrong. Am I missing something? No, you're not.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

No, but you are ready with us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:57

The are you ready is a question. And if you're not ready, you know, first of all, I mean, the way I teach it in classes is if if the shooter is still fumbling around and moving and doing stuff, you know, putting on yet another layer of whatever grip goo they would need feel that they need to have on their hands. If they're adjusting their sunglasses, they're turning on the half dozen cameras they have on their body. Whatever they're doing. If they're still doing stuff, they're not ready. So don't say, Are you ready?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Well, he did wait and then gave them the standby.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Or say it again once they get back in the right position.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

You know, but if he but telling him that he's turning his camera on, that's I mean, even if he says stand by and then he turns his camera on, then you start, you go over. Well, yeah, you start over.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

You go back to are you ready?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

But yeah, I mean, it happens. You forget to turn your camera on and so but the thing is, yeah, the computer moves after stand by, they're not ready. Go back.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

Well, maybe the the RO was thinking that you know, if you start to move right at the beat, then you could maybe get a creeping penalty, not knowing exactly where the hand is headed, depending on start position and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

Maybe. But I just think that's a weird, a weird thing to tell somebody that could be an issue. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:23

We should now start the camera after being given the make are you ready command. Yeah. Right. I mean that's what happens on that stage stays on that stage. No one will know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

I mean, that that happens like 50% of the time. I give somebody a make ready, they forget to turn the camera on. At some point during the during the are you ready, they remember they have to turn the camera on.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

Yeah, right. Yeah, if you want to speed up stages, eliminate cameras and uh grip, you know, pro grip and all that other goo that people put on. But yeah, it's yeah, my favorite are the ones that start at their shoes and tighten their shoes, and you know, then they're they're they're like doing this head-to-toe check to make sure they're ready to rock and roll. Um, whatever, you know, whatever floats your boat.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

But whatever ritual you need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

I mean, it's yeah, but there you go. All

Sweeping During RO Interference

SPEAKER_03 1:03:20

right. We had a situation at our last match where an RO was hung up on a wall while running the timer, got stuck, and the competitor then ran around behind the RO and swept him with the muzzle while shooting the course of fire. The competitor was not DQ'd and finished the stage and the match. I say it was a bad call and he should have been DQ'd. According to USPSA competition rules 1055, sweeping is a DQ for unsafe gun handling in the case of the RO, in the case of RO interference. I don't see this as RO interference. What should have happened is that the RO should have called stop, cleared the competitor, and called for reshoot. At the very least, the competitor should have pointed his muzzle at the ground or at the sky if he wasn't stopped. He always could have claimed RO inference at the end of the course of fire, but since he pointed the muzzle at the person worse, a loaded handgun with a safety off, I certainly would have DQ'd the competitor. I interpret RO interference to mean a case where an RO puts himself unavoidably in front of the muzzle, not the other way around. Let's say you all.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:21

This is definitely an interference thing. If the RO got hung up on the wall and I I don't know what he got hung up on or whatever, but I mean, if he got stuck and he couldn't move out of the way and the competitor ran around him, I mean you may be not even noticing that that RO is there until you get by him, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

I mean, it's not uncommon that your tunnel vision on the stage kind of thing. This has happened in the past in a couple of very notable uh uh instances. But in any case, uh this question is sort of circular because he could have if he had been stopped, he could claim auto interference, or if he had pointed the muzzle at the ground, he could claim RO interference. Well, it's still RO interference because the RO was stuck in a position that he could not physically get out of the way, right? Right, yeah, it's very similar to just being too slow and getting overrun or whatever. Um, and the rules were written specifically to address this uh kind of situation where the RO maybe he fell down, maybe he's just too slow. You're a real fast guy, and you and you moved and and he didn't anticipate it, or he got hung up on the wall somehow. Um I would suggest that maybe you put them nails or screws all the way in so you don't get hung up on it. But uh this is obviously uh an interference thing, and and I would not disqualify that competitor for that. No. I mean, I I would be willing to bet that that competitor probably felt pretty bad about actually pointing a gun at somebody because even in some of our training ROs, we see people the RO's not being able to get out of the way. And in almost all cases, if you can see that RO there, you're not going to try to point a gun at it. Right. It's just not common practice. Most people have that enough common sense to not do that. But I mean, it could have been a flash thing, right? Where he just went right by and bang and then you know he swept it. Right. But still, the fact of the matter is the RO was stuck.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

Right. We have a couple of videos in the level one presentation where this happens. Right. And I don't believe in either one of those that the shooter knew the RO was there until he swept in with his gun.

unknown 1:06:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

So shoot, you know, you're shooting, you tend to get tunnel vision. You may not be necessarily aware um of what's going on around you as so much. And um, you know, and it's it's just gonna happen and it's gonna happen so fast that there's you're it's kind of unavoidable. So I mean, certainly all of us would like to think that if that happened to us, we would see the RO and not sweep them. But I I've never had it happen, but um I I'm one of those people when I was shooting, I tend to be pretty focused on what I'm doing, and I might not see an RO.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Well, and the this you know, the person who said this question said the RO should have had said stop. Yeah, the sure RO should have said stop. But this might have happened so fast that the RO didn't have time to say stop as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

It was probably saying oh shit or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

I mean There was other words thinking in his brain at the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Oops.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

What I do now, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

Yeah. So yeah, absolutely not a DQ in this case. I mean, honestly, lately, uh Roswell, I don't know if you've had questions like this or or experienced this, but I mean, man, I have seen so many people just go straight to the DQ of procedural rules for something that absolutely doesn't warrant it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

I mean, it's we have uh we have a I I see the question. Um it's I agree. Like, yeah, the RO should have yelled stop, and maybe the competitor shouldn't have swept, but these things happen so fast um that you know it's easy to play. I should have done this or I should have done that on you know Tuesday evening while we're you know, we got all the time in the world to read about this. Um, but when it happens on the range, these things happen so fast. And you know, the things that we teach in the class about the you know, the finger in the trigger guard and the the 180s, it's not like a guy goes to 195 degrees and hangs out there while you make a decision for 15 seconds. These things are they're they're snap decisions. The finger and the trigger guard, you really do see a glimpse of it for you know a fraction of a second. Uh they're hard calls to make. And you know, when even in the the videos on in the class where uh a couple of the ROs get out of position and shooters um get close to sweeping, I'm not sure if they actually sweep, but because both of the competitors do a pretty good job of raising the gun up above uh where the RO is and the ROs do this little duck maneuver. Um these things happen so fast, it's it's really hard to criticize people on Tuesday evening um for things that happened on you know Sunday on the range, because everything happened so fast. It's I think it's a good idea to talk about it, and everybody can learn learn from these things. Um, but I don't I don't really like the idea of the the question sort of makes it as a it's kind of critical of the the way that it happened on the range when these things happen so fast, like I have a hard time being critical about some of these things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

So I I was I was just rereading this and said pointed the muzzle at the ground or at the sky. Well, what if he pointed at the sky in the wrong direction? Then that RO could have stopped him and DQ'd him, right? Right. Right. I mean, that could have been a whole situation there. But simple bottom line is RO was stuck. Yeah, competitor ran around him, probably didn't see him until he was right there, swept him, probably like Russell said, he didn't hang out and sweep and point the gun at him for 15 seconds, going, How you like this, right? You know, so that's probably not how that happened. I mean, so yeah, there's all kinds of circumstances there, but no no way that should have been a disqualification.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

But if it was, so let's let's say the RO said, Hey, you pointed your gun at me, uh, and it would be, I mean, maybe sort of a legitimate DQ. I wouldn't do it, but hey, the guy's he pointed his gun at somebody during the stage. Um, sorry, go ahead and DQ, but then you call the range master, and the range master is going to look at this and immediately say, These are exceptional circumstances for how this happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:40

Well, and before we made that change to 1055, what used to happen is it was a DQ. It was a DQ to the shooter, and then the RM would come and reverse it. And um, that's kind of why that sentence is written that way in 1055, because that reflected the common practice at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Uh well, it's just not fair to penal DQ a shooter for something that they couldn't control. It was totally out of control.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

And this is uh I I mentioned earlier a couple of notable instances of this. So one of them was in 2014 at the World Shoot at uh Universal Shooting Academy in Florida. Uh young lady with the Filipino team overran an American RO. He wasn't ROA, but he was serving as NROI RO on a stage, overran him, and uh he stopped her and disqualified her for it, right? And so the RO was the RM was called, and the RM said, uh basically, no, you were too slow to get out of the way. And so I'm putting her back in the match. Well, man, he raised hell about that, and then the next day the president of Iroa came and disqualified her, which caused a whole it's a whole nother story with that. But uh that's one of those things that the the RM had the ultimate call there. Um and I think he made the right call. And since IPSC has modified the rule that it sounds basically the same way ours does, that the RM has the call, right? Yeah, so that's uh it it's that's always been a thing. And like uh like uh Kevin said, it was usually the RM's like, well, no, dude, you were too slow to get out of the way. I'm not thinking for that, right? So it's a split second kind of thing in most cases. So I like that though, Russell. It's like pointing your muzzle at 195, going, hey, look at this, look at this.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

Yeah, get your protractor out. Get your protractor out.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:41

RO's help yell, freeze, and then they go take measurements.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:47

Yeah.

Reporting Cheating And Bad Conduct

SPEAKER_03 1:12:50

Okay. And let's see, and then our last minute uh we wanted to talk a little bit about reporting unsportsman-like behavior that doesn't fall within the RO incident process. Um, so maybe the person is not a certified RO. The RO incident process only um functions for uh certified range officials. And there are other people on the range that might be doing unsportsmanlike things. So we were going to talk a little bit about what to do about other unsportsmanlike things um and what we can what we can do. I believe USPSA is working on a committee to handle conduct um of competitors, but I don't know if that's been set up yet.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:37

I think I think it's it has been set up. It's a discipline committee, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:44

I don't know. That's I mean it's we wouldn't hear it. I guess we wouldn't hear it even if they were if they were operating. So that stuff tends to be pretty quiet.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:54

Sounds like an emperor question.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:57

Yeah, I think that's something that would be uh handled by the discipline committee.

unknown 1:14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:02

Are they are they set up for the fun channel, Russell? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

Okay, very, very busy committee. Okay. Yeah, I mean we we might as well mention it since since we have a bit of a forum here. Um I don't know why people continue to do this. Maybe people are not hearing um that other people are being uh uh suspended and disciplined for cheating in USPSA. This is actively taking a tablet and making changes to your score um to improve your score. This is it continues to go on. I have no idea why these people want to do this. Um I I always say that I I think these are the type of people that when their family sits down to play Monopoly, they've got a couple of $500 bills, you know, stuffed under their leg or something. Yeah, mostly cheating in USPSA is not tolerated at all. And if you get caught cheating in USPSA, you will likely not be a member for very long. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:56

Yeah, you know, it's funny the back when I was involved with some of that, the uh the reasons for doing it were the strangest things I've ever heard. I mean, one was well, my buddy and I bet lunch on who wins the match, so I didn't want to buy him lunch, so I changed my scores. I mean, really? I didn't want to buy lunch, so I changed my scores. And then, well, I I thought it would make me look better for as an instructor. Well, how does this cheating thing make you look, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:30

I mean it's to be clear, this would these are not NROI instructors.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:34

No, no, yeah, as a shooting instructor, as a as a coach, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

Private coach instructors, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:39

So, oh yeah, you're the guy that I mean, Jesus, you're all familiar with the whole hullabaloo they had several years ago about that, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

So, I mean, wow. But some of the reasons are absolutely dumb. You know, why did you do that? Well, I I I just didn't like my score. It looked terrible, and I just wanted to look better on paper, you know, ranked in my girlfriend, whatever. I mean, it's not worth it. If it's a sport that you really enjoy and you like being a member and you like shooting matches and you love it, whatever, then why cheat? You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:16

So, Russell, what is the point of entry for someone that how do we get something into the discipline committee? Do you report it to your area director and they carry it in? Or what's what yeah?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:27

You can you can do that. You can if if you know how to contact your own area director, you can do that. You can send it to the director of large Dan Click, he gets a number of reports, or you can send it directly to the chair of the discipline committee, which is currently uh Billy Harrington, the area six director.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

Okay. Yeah. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:47

All right. Um anything else we want to talk about tonight?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Um, along those lines, I just want to mention that we have received a couple of incident reports, uh, range officer incident reports. Um, and just to reiterate that whole procedure, this is not something that that I investigate or or make decisions on until the investigation is final. Um it's done by a group of instructors that look into it, question your witnesses, talk to you, talk to whoever they need to talk to, uh, sort out the facts and then and then make a decision. Uh the NRY discipline procedure is published on the USPSA webpage. If you go to the NRY tab and look under policies, it's there. So somebody actually has to write it up, they have to have a reason for doing it, um, uh a valid reason for doing it. Uh, it has to kind of have some evidence behind it. It can't just be, well, I don't like the way this guy acted, kind of thing. You've got to have some witnesses, et cetera. We have to have something that we can't actually investigate. But it's uh it's independent of my position until the discipline committee gives me the results of their investigation and a recommendation as to what level it is and what the discipline should be. Um the policy lets me overstep that recommendation if it's needed, but actually most of the time the committee comes up with a good recommendation for the discipline, so it's done that way. So that is totally different from the discipline committee stuff, which deals mostly with members, but there is a there is an aspect in the NRY discipline that says I can refer that to them and recommend that you be removed from your organization. So there's always that.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:37

Yeah, you know, it's we've I'm on one of the committees that's currently working on one of these. And if the committee reaches out to you by email, they expect an email response. We really aren't set up to take phone calls. Um part of the problem is these the people the instructors that are forming the investigating committee, there's not one of us. There's multiples, and usually three, sometimes, sometimes more. Um and getting everybody coordinated so we can have a phone call, no, that's just not gonna happen. Plus, we don't have the ability to transcribe that phone call unless we do it on Zoom and trust Zoom AI to transcribe it, um, which I don't know if I would. And uh, you know, it's it's just not gonna happen. So it does don't don't try and call us. We had uh one of the people on the that's in the the one we're investigating right now call the office today uh demanding to speak to me. Um and uh it's like now we're not set up to do phone calls. So if we send you an email, please respond with an email. Um it it doesn't take that long. Um and uh you know you it you know we do expect a response from all parties we contact because um we we try not to we try to have all the facts before we move forward. And you know, if you don't respond, we're not gonna have yours your side of the story, and that could influence the decision uh one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:09

Right. Yeah, we're when they when they talk about USPSA headquarters, right? A lot of people go, I'm gonna report this to HQ. There's not a physical building there anymore, right? There's no office building where everybody's congregated. We are not all in the same place. You know, I had a man to talk to Kevin Emble. I want him on the phone right now. Go to his office and get him. Well, I don't think he's I don't think he's there. I'd have to go to Washington, some other place in Washington to get him.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:38

Yeah, I think Jody and I may be the two closest together USPSA employees.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:45

Well, I mean most of them live in the most of the the the the the former office staff now that now work remote. They're yeah, everybody works remote. Yeah. So there's a lot in there's a I think we have a higher percentage of USPSA employees in the state of Washington. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's that's where it's there's no no longer a physical building or a quote headquarters office building, you know. Uh if you go where it used to be, there's an insurance agency there. So you can buy yourself some some insurance. All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:23

So yeah, that's so yeah. Anyway, we're not being mean by making you type out an email.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:30

We're I mean it's it's part of the investigation, it's evidence. Basically, it's your statement you're making, just like you'd have to do with the cops. You can't do that on the phone either.

How NROI Investigations Work

unknown 1:21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:41

All right. Usually does that cover the rules? I think so, Russell. What uh what's your travel plans coming up, my friend? Are you doing any IPSC matches coming up?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:55

Um well, just Iptic Nationals uh this year in a early uh late September, early October. Uh, and then uh early next year, the extreme match that'll be in Florida. Um I'm home actually for a couple of weeks, so I'm I'm uh happy to be home. I've got to get some things fixed on the van and my truck. Uh so I need the time at home. Uh this weekend's the 4th of July, so hopefully everybody's going out shooting uh a USPSA match on the 4th. That's a good way to celebrate the 250th anniversary of our country. Um that's what I'm doing. I'm shooting a match on Saturday and a different match on Sunday. Uh so hopefully everybody's doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

So you're not going to the Canadian Insig Nationals this year?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:37

No, I I wanted to, but it's uh too close uh in time proximity to the Area 8 match this year. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:44

Yeah. So that's gonna be up in Prince George, British Columbia, which is a pretty quite a hike, I think. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:51

I was really gonna make it a hike. I was uh because I talked to them last year about it and they were telling me where it was gonna be. So the plan was to go to the Canadian Nationals and then continue on in the van to Alaska. So I was gonna make the drive to Alaska. But it's not a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:06

Wait, wait, are we gonna you were gonna drive from Prince Edward Island to Alaska?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:10

No, Prince Georgia is Prince Georgia, okay. Yeah, it's not an island, it's in north of Spokane and a little bit west.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:20

They have a hotel.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:22

That makes a little more sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:24

Yeah, that's correct. I I've been to Prince Edward Island too. I don't think you'd be honest would have made that drive. Yeah, I would have made that drive to Alaska.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:33

Yeah, Prince George, if if I understand my Canadian uh friends, is eight and a half, nine hours from Vancouver.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:40

Yeah, it's it's in the central. It's up there. It's north central BC, but um there aren't a ton of roads in BC.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:50

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:51

So are you going, Troy?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:53

So you're going to Canadian Nationals this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

Yeah, yeah, I'm going up there. I've got a CRO for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:58

So Okay, yeah, I wish I could. I did have a good time going to that match last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:02

Right. So yeah, that'll be it'll be an interesting match. Um and then I was just informed today that uh Trinidad uh is putting on a level three in October. It's gonna be their first one. And uh my friend Alistair Stewart from Jamaica told me about it. He didn't exactly come out and say it, but he was like, you know, uh they could really use some help. It's their first match in February. Ah, I see. So that's in October. Um I might see if I can't make my way down to Trinidad and and help them out.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:34

Oh, Darren Swiss your arm, you're gonna have to go to interesting. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:38

Well, no, not Jamaica, Trinidad Tobago.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

Oh, Trinidad Tobago, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:42

Yeah.

unknown 1:24:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

So same difference. It's not it's about the same trip as when I went to Suriname. So it's like one of those things you can get there, but you just can't get there today. Um Sundays, I guess. So the mask didn't finish until Sunday, so that meant we had to hang around all day Monday and then fly out on Tuesday, which was okay, but you know, I got to see a little bit of the capital of Suriname. Yeah. Well, that's good, and then Area 2 is coming up too. You're going to that as well, right? You got an RM out there? Yes, sir. Yeah, cool. Um I don't know if I'm gonna make that one or not. I'd like to, but we'll see if they need me or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

The Gator Campbell matches coming up. They've got over eleven hundred people registered for the Area Two Championship.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:44

Eleven hundred.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:45

Yes. Not obviously not eleven hundred people in the match, but that's how popular that match has gotten.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:51

Oh, holy cow.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:58

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:59

And I think they're I think they're gonna surpass even that number this year. Yeah, even in the back-to-back days in Vegas, we would not quite break a thousand with both matches.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:11

I might contact them to see if they need some help. All right. What else we got tonight? I think that's about it. Russell, you got anything you want to throw out there?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:25

We appreciate you coming on. I don't think so, explaining your everything, and I always appreciate your contributions to the rules and our discussions, even though sometimes we don't see eye to eye, it usually works out.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:37

So that's a healthy debate. It's good for good for the rules committee, basically. Uh you don't want everybody uh in complete agreement.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:46

No, yeah, you don't want people in lockstep for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:49

So no. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate you guys having me on. Uh get the uh give Matt Schwartz the the credit he deserves.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:59

The blame, you mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:01

Or that.

unknown 1:27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:05

Oh my.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:07

All right. Well, like I said earlier, I think you do a great job promoting your SPSA within Area 8 and all over the place. And uh uh keep that up. That's it. Well, thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah.

Volunteers And Local Matches Matter

SPEAKER_01 1:27:20

I especially like the way that you recognize certain people in your area for doing things. So I think we don't get enough about we don't get enough of that. And being that we do rely on a lot of volunteers, I think that's a critical thing to recognize people that are doing a good job that are just sort of unsung in the general scheme of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:37

So yeah, that I mean in USPSA, there are so many unsung heroes. Because typically, even at the level level one match level, um, the match director is typically the face of the match. So I'm the one who stands up and you know normally gets the match briefing. So, you know, you my face kind of gets recognized as the match itself. But of course, you know, our our setup days, we've we've Between 20 and 25 people who are club members, and even members, USPSA members who are not members of my club will come out on a Friday uh to help us set up our match. So, you know, yeah, the match director is kind of the face of the match, but every single match has like a team of people behind the match director helping them put the match on. Um, and you know, USPSA couldn't exist, and it wouldn't exist without people like that. So if the bigger matches, you know, we can't do it without the volunteer ROs and the people who build the match. But on a local level, and USPSA is primarily local matches. You know, most of the matches that happen in USPSA every year are local matches. And those matches really that really are put on by just people who are doing this for their love of the game. Uh, they want to put on a good a good match for the people in their area to come and shoot the match. Uh and it's just 100% volunteer driven. I really like the volunteer spirit that I see wherever I go, any any local match that I go to, whether it's in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, uh, even if I go to a match out in Arizona, uh, these local matches are all the same. They're all put on by a sort of a core group of volunteers that get together and do something really nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:13

Yeah. And that's that's the heart of the that's the heart of the organization, really. I mean, it's I hear comments from from people from other board members that tell you about, you know, nationals this, area advanced this. The reality is that you know, you get a certain group of people that go to nationals, and a lot of times you see a lot of the same faces, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:33

Um you go down to the area level, you see a lot of the same faces. You go down to the section level, you see a lot of the same faces. But the the true uh meat and potatoes of the organization is club matches, right? And then some people go there, I'm gonna shoot my big match this year, and that's their section match. And for them, that's their big match that year, right? So over the years, we've tried to emphasize that you should be running those matches right, you should make a big production out of it. Because for a lot of people, that's their thing. And they don't they're not interested so much in what's going on on a national championship level, right? They're interested in what's going on at their home club, how can USPSA help them do a better job with that? How can we train people better? How can we give them a little bit of feedback or a little bit of recognition, et cetera? So it's always a it's always a good thing to to talk about your volunteers and the people that are putting stuff on. And that that gives me an idea. We're gonna talk about that amongst ourselves at some point.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:35

Right. All right, thanks, Russell. Okay, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:40

Nice being on again.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:41

Yeah, good to have you. Anything else? Nope.

Email Rules And Find Seminars

SPEAKER_03 1:30:46

All right, with that, as a reminder for everybody, if you have questions, comments, whatever, rules at uspsa.org, and we will get you an answer as quickly as we can. We were a little slow there for a couple days because a bunch of us were going odd directions and tied up with other stuff, but I think we're back at it again. So anyway, again, rules at uspsa.org. If your club is thinking about a class, get that class in. Um the ball is starting to fill as as well. So um, and we'll take reservations on into next year already. So um go ahead and get those in. And you can do that off of our off the webpage. Uh find the under N ROI look for the seminar related links. With that, thanks everybody, and good night. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NROI seminars under the NROI tab at USPSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRI tab at USPSA.org.