Opening, Disclaimers, And Credits

SPEAKER_06 0:04

This is the NROI podcast. Your source for factual information for US FA Competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Orange Oxfords Institute, United States Fractal Shooting Association, and Steel Challenge Shooting Association. Fall World Books can be found at USBsta.org slash rules, state.org slash rules, and on the USBS type and SIGSAD apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rights for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Rules discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules should be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 102, recorded mid-June 2026. Well

Meet The Hosts And Guests

SPEAKER_06 1:05

everyone, welcome to the AnneRoy Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Emmel, and with me tonight are a whole bunch of people. Two of which are Troy McMenus. Good evening, Troy. Good evening. And Jody Heming. Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Good evening.

SPEAKER_06 1:19

Yeah, all right. And Troy, you want to introduce our other two guests, please?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Sure. So this evening we have a couple of uh distinguished and semi-distinguished guests, I guess. Uh we have Paul Hernando this, who is recently retired from the uh master instructor corps.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

Instructor emeritus. And Dan Click, our director at large. Good evening, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

And we're gonna go from there. I'm gonna go that I'm the semi-distinguished. I'm gonna go with him that I'm the distinct semi-distinguished, and Paul is the distinguished guest.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

I was gonna go the other way, man.

SPEAKER_06 2:04

It's okay, Dan. Yeah, but you got more time than harness, Paul.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

So good to have you both. Um like I said, Paul is uh we're we're sad to see you go, man, but uh I understand I can't keep doing this forever, and uh you know we're gonna maintain that disruptive merit of status on your on your profile.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

So I do appreciate that. Retiring um was one of the hardest decisions I actually had to make. A lot harder than when I decided to retire from work. That one's kind of easy. Yeah, that one was easy, but I really enjoyed uh being an instructor and I really enjoyed uh uh participating in USPSA. I've been in the sport, started in 1985 at club level, and then in um 1995, my club hosted at the Area 5 championship. So they put out a call for all hands on deck and I got certified, joined USPSA, then got certified, and I never looked back.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Sport has a habit of hooking you like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

So you you uh gained your first certification in 1995? Yes. Wow, you know that actually makes me certified for longer than you because I got mine in '91.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

I'd like to say you're older than me, but that's not true.

SPEAKER_05 3:49

No, that's not true.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

But we do appreciate everything you've done, Paul. I mean, Paul has been one of our most popular instructors. Uh, we got a lot of requests for Paul Hernandez taught seminars, so you had to be doing something right.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Yep. Well, even though I worked in a university for 45 plus years, they didn't teach me bad habits.

unknown 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

I I would say there's a lot of people that are at all levels of range officers, um, range masters, CROs, ROs, that owe their what they know about our rule set to Paul Hernandez. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

Oh, yeah.

unknown 4:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Well, we were talking the other day. I think you said around 1,200 people. Is that about right? Uh approximately.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

I yeah, I never really kept track of students. Um, I looked more at graduation rates and pass rates, although not every student that took the class wanted the certification. They just wanted to get a better understanding of the rules. Um, but on average, uh, I didn't even keep track of how many seminars I taught, but it was over 80.

Paul’s Path From 1985 Onward

SPEAKER_03 5:05

And um the biggest class we did was one of my early ones, and it was in Arizona.

SPEAKER_06 5:12

Yeah, you and I team taught that one, I think.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Yep, I was gonna say I had to have Kevin come and help me because we ended up with more than 40 students in there.

SPEAKER_06 5:20

Yeah, we had 62. Wow. Yeah, that was wow. We were in that air side, their uh air rifle building, so it was all climate controlled. Um, and it actually ended up it worked out great because we had the chairs set up with an aisle down the middle, so we used the aisle down the middle kind of as a as shooting area, and so we could do a whole bunch of in-motion demos and because we had space to move. Um, it actually was it was a great facility.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah, the only problem was the weather. I remember we started that range exercise at 7 a.m. when it was only like 104 degrees outside.

SPEAKER_06 6:00

Exactly. Yeah, it was 112 when we finished at about 1015, 1030. And uh yeah, it was the only place I wanted to be after that was sitting next to a cold beverage in a cold place.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yeah, it took a while before we got the cold beverages, though.

SPEAKER_06 6:20

Yes, it did.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

So Paul, how long have you been an instructor? When did you start?

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Uh like a little over about eleven years. Because um he started after the first time. Yeah, the first time the position was offered to me, I really couldn't accept it because um I didn't have the time to commit to it. Um I was taking my wife out to Cleveland Clinic twice a month for treatment, and um I just couldn't commit to it. So I think um I began my training in 2015, became a full-time instructor in 2016.

SPEAKER_05 7:13

Well, Dan, how about you?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

What's your what's your what's your history of being certified at USPSA?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah, so I I've been with USPSA for around 20 a little over 20 years, and um started uh when I was living up in Michigan, and Gary Johnson um was holding some classes and I took those and and also my CRO. Um that's probably been um, I'd have to look, but probably 15 years ago. Um, and then uh had the honor of of Paul actually being my Rage Master instructor and and got to experience a lot of fun and interesting things that um Paul liked to challenge me with. I mean I remember I remember one specific uh situation where Paul um I think set me up on this on purpose where we had a um activator cable that uh broke and he had the army marksmanship unit there was just grilling me on how that I was able to prove that the new cable was the same as the um previous cable. Um do you remember that, Paul?

SPEAKER_03 8:23

I do, and it was basically the Marines. Oh the Marine Corps, yeah, that's all right. That's right. And uh said uh I don't think this was moving at the same speed. Prove to me that um I'm not right.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So uh I was able to show him the measurements of the both cables and that they were still moving at the same uh pace and everything. And uh uh but Paul uh did a great job of putting me through the paces. So I'm very appreciative of Paul and all the tutelage he's done. Um he's continued to be a great resource. Um Paul knows that you know we I'll call him up periodically and just say, hey, this this is what's happened, or what would you say about this or that? And and Paul continues to be a great resource, even um after me getting my uh RM certification.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Good. I appreciate that, Dan. And uh, you know, I've known Dan for a long time. We um don't exactly remember the date, but the first time I remembered seeing you at a match was in uh Circleville at the Buckeye Blast. I think that's correct. And you call me to a stage because uh you were gonna do a DQ on a guy for uh clearing a jam while fingering the trigger guard.

SPEAKER_05 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Yep, and um he was reading the rule book to you when I showed up. And at least he had the right rule book. We talked about it, and uh I told him, Well, you know, unfortunately that rule doesn't apply to the situation you were in. You had to have the gun pointing at the target so you could clear it. And you put the gun down. Right. Yeah, but um, yeah, I was very impressed with your RO ing skills. Um I've been impressed with your master actor skills and your arrangement skills. You you learned well, Dan.

SPEAKER_05 10:21

I had a I had a good, a really good teacher. So thank you, Paul. Much appreciated.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

You know, it's not how you guys gotta stick together.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

So speaking of the Buckeye Blast, you you guys have been uh involved with that. That's been an ongoing match for quite a few years, hasn't it? It is. Um yeah, go ahead, Paul.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

I was gonna say I I kind of remember when the first one I worked was, but I I know it was in the early 2000s, and um Kyle Ferris was our area director at the time, or sanction coordinator, and he would alternate Brian Hanna and myself as his RMs every year. And one year Brian looked at him and said, Hey,

Buckeye Blast Growth And Traditions

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Kyle, you know, Paul's a certified RM. Why wouldn't you just use him instead of me?

SPEAKER_05 11:20

And Kyle said it was um probably I want to say 2005 is when I started that.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

And um I know we kept drawing a lot of shooters. I think this year was the largest match ever, Dan. And uh we consistently got over 300 competitors for many years.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, we had uh we just a couple weeks ago ended uh you know, finished the match. Uh it went quite well. Um, even though uh Cardinal has somewhat of a reputation of it raining there sometimes. Uh, we were able to shoot the the entire match. We did get a little bit of rain right over the lunch hour on Saturday, um, put us about 30 minutes behind, but uh didn't impact any shooters. Nobody had to shoot in the rain. Um, and uh everybody had a really good time. We ended up with about 360-ish uh shooters uh this year, and so it continues to be a great match. Uh we try to outdo ourselves each new year. Um, one of the things that we established in and uh a couple years ago, and and Paul was actually the first recipient of the Ohio USPSA Um Hall of Fame inductee. And um for all the efforts that Paul have done over the years to support Buckeye Blast and the Ohio section, uh everything he's done. So we we were super honored to be able to induct Paul into our state um USPSA Hall of Fame. So that was an exciting opportunity for us to to bestow that upon Paul. Well, congratulations, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, congratulations, very much.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Thank you. Um totally caught me by surprise. Um and um I had to make a speech, of course. Uh totally unprepared. However, I'm very rarely at a loss for words. Yeah, but it was um, if I remember the exact date, it was in uh 2023 that we did that. Yep. The very first one.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

So do you have like a Hollywood star kind of thing at Cardinal that we've missed when we've been there?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Well, we we don't have anything up at Cardinal. We did, um uh Paul does have a uh kind of a memento that uh honors him for that. Um and uh we we mention all of the new inductees each year as as we go through, and it's become a tradition of honoring people who've been contributors to particularly to Buckeye Blast, but even uh folks that haven't been involved with Buckeye Blast, but just involved in um the Ohio area uh supporting USPSA. So it's one of the ways that we feel like we can give back to the folks that have given to us for so long.

SPEAKER_05 14:25

Yeah. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

You can always name the pond after him.

SPEAKER_05 14:32

We certainly could do that.

SPEAKER_06 14:34

Or that little alley that they use for Chrono.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:38

No, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

If you're not giving that guy's door down there. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Not yet. Not yet. Yeah, he did he did remind us. He did remind us that uh somehow a his words, a slug uh hit his door down there. And I'm like, well, you know, ricochets happen, so right. Nobody shot, I made it clear, nobody shot your door. Um I'm quite confident that Jay nor Paul or anybody else shot his door. So yeah, it skipped off of southbound.

Range Upgrades That Prevent Injuries

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah. So speaking of car, there are a few there are a few rocks in the sideburm there.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

A little bit. Uh I've noticed that uh since the first time we went there that there have been a lot of improvements, right? Both in props, uh, because when we first got there, we were pinning the walls in with a piece of rebar, and then we have wall feet. We have a lot more, a lot more new walls, uh bullet traps for the wooden walls, so we can utilize those a little bit better. Um, I think the production of buckeye blasts and other matches there, as well as USPSA Nationals, has uh has really helped to improve that range. And you can't really complain about the size of it, right? I mean, you got a lot of bays there. So uh hopefully Cardinals stays in our plans for matches in the future.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Yeah, I know there's a there's a a lot of dedication to putting on the best matches that that we can. Um, I know a lot of the members of the club there are take a lot of pride in folks coming from all over to shoot the matches. There's been a tremendous amount of investment uh in terms of, like you said, props, walls, bullet traps, et cetera, uh, to make sure that it can be as uh a challenging shooting experience, but an enjoyable shooting experience. In fact, um last year we resurfaced the entire range because as you remember, there was some uh lava rock type stuff uh on the surface that was not really good. It was kind of like running around on marbles on concrete. Um that's been completely redone. And in fact, um in all of Buckeye Blast a couple of weeks ago, we didn't have a single fall uh where we needed uh any kind of medical attention. Not a single person went down because of the surface. So um that's a huge improvement uh for the folks who have shot there before in the years past. Uh, I think they'll be really excited about the fact that they can aggressively go into shooting positions and be confident that, you know, as long as they do what they need to do, that the ground is going to do what it needs to do. So that's a that's a huge improvement um beyond all the things you just talked about, props, et cetera. The ground is a huge improvement.

SPEAKER_06 17:27

Yeah, those senders were never fun. And if you fall on those, they really hurt.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

They really do. And those were probably the the most significant medical uh calls that we had at the

On-Site EMS For Major Matches

SPEAKER_00 17:40

at all the matches that we had there. And like I said, didn't have a single one. You know, one of the things that we've done over the last couple of years is we um even for our uh Buckeye Blast for Area Five, et cetera, we have on uh scene EMS full time for the entirety of the match. So instead of relying upon, you know, Jay Warden, who's awesome in terms of being a paramedic and going and helping, but that takes him away from Crono or somebody else who's an RO or a CRO on a stage who has medical training. Now you've had to take a RO away from a stage. Uh what we decided a couple of years ago is we bring Morrow County EMS. They put a couple people on site. They have their own golf cart, they have their own, uh, they use one of our radios, but they have their own radios. If there truly is an actual medical emergency, they can call right into dispatch um immediately. We don't have to call 911. Uh, but to have those people who are trained EMS people dedicated and focused on that, I think is a is a great thing for us to do. They were really bored because nothing happened. So um, as you can imagine, it you know, having bored EMS people is great. You know, it's kind of like board RMs.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

Exactly. Board police officers, board firemen, it's all a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

So better than board Marines, though they tear stuff up.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah. So so Dan, how did you go around about arranging that for some of the other clubs listening?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, so um, that's a great question, Jody. So we actually had the the club, I'm sorry, the the range, so Cardinal Shooting Center has relationships with the chief at Morrow County um fire department. And we uh the club went to the range and said, hey, what would it take for us to get people to be on site for us to have an ambulance or have EMS on site? They're like, oh, well, we can just reach out to the chief and they can put somebody on special, essentially special duty. Um they come out, they just charge us an hourly rate for the however many people we have. Um we we have two people on site. We have them show up uh about a half hour before the match starts. They go to about a half hour after the match is over. Um, we also include uh some uh Southern Bobbecue lunch and breakfast for them. That's always a good uh add-on in addition to you know their hourly rate. Um, but it was really just reaching out to the local EMS. Um, I I think that probably anybody could do that. Um, so I would highly encourage you to reach out either to your volunteer fire department that might be in your area or even uh the full-time department. They may have some people that are off duty but can work special duty. Um and it and really the pricing was not uh very expensive compared to the benefits of having them on site. Um and again, if something bad were to happen, they're right there. They are the most trained folks, and uh it works out really well. But I would just reach out to your local um fire department EMS folks, and uh I'm sure they would most places would be more than happy to help out.

SPEAKER_06 20:48

Yeah, when I was in EMS, I did an awful lot of high school football game standbys for popcorn and hot chocolate.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Right. Yeah, it's the same here. There's a there's a private membership ambulance service that does serve as primary EMS in some parishes, but uh in most of them, they're the they're a contract place. So if you need an ambulance, you can call them. In fact, in rural areas, there's usually no service, but they will do standby for high school uh football, rodeo, all of that stuff. So uh that's not a bad if you if you have one of those in your area. I don't I don't really know what this one charges if they charge at all, but um that that would be another alternative if you have a private ambulance service if you can hook up a couple of EMSs from I mean EMTs from them. If they're off shift and just working, you know, moonlighting with it, that would be that wouldn't be a bad thing either, because they can always bring their kit. They don't need an ambulance, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, right. And and they don't so for Morrill County, they did not bring an ambulance, they brought a uh a golf cart, it's an EMS golf cart, it was their golf cart. Um, but I think that's Really good thing is when they bring all their stuff. So even you know, we had a couple people who needed a band-aid or something like that, you know, maybe got bit by a slide or something like that. I mean, just little tiny minor things, no no major stuff. Um, so they did go on a few calls on scene, but the really important thing is that they carry their EMS, their fire department radio. And if something bad were to happen, they call right into dispatch to get somebody on scene as quickly as possible. Right.

AEDs, Maintenance, And Emergency Planning

SPEAKER_05 22:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

That's a good plan to have. And I noticed that uh I do know that Cardinal had some uh AEDs out there as well, right? That was always in the in the clubhouse.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah, we have we have usually have at least a couple AEDs on site. I mean, we we did there was an incident several years back at a Steel Challenge match where a gentleman passed away on the range, um, had a heart attack, um, and uh CPR was performed and so forth. Um, but unfortunately he did pass away. Um we did not have an AED at that point. And ever since then, um, we've made it a point to have at least one or two AEDs um on the scene. We usually the RMs usually you know put one on their golf cart. Um sometimes we'll put it at Crono or or some other place centrally located that's easy to get to. You can buy AEDs. Um, this is not my area of expertise, but for a relatively low dollar amount under under $1,000 and probably closer to like $600, you can get a refurbished AED. Um, and a refurbished AED is better than no AED. So again, kind of things to recommend. I would highly recommend a person, you know, if you are gonna have four or five hundred people on your range, uh, an AED is a smart thing to have.

SPEAKER_06 23:49

Yeah, yeah, they even sell them at Costco. Um and they're not usually in the store. You have to catalog order it. Um, but one other thing for everybody to remember is there's some consumables on an AED that expire. Those pads are they're silver nitrate gel-based, and those those will dry out and they do expire. So there isn't there is some ongoing maintenance and upkeep on an AED. Um, you have to replace the batteries however many years it's model dependent.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

But what Kevin, is my pricing generally correct? Like a refill because you get the five or six in the bucks?

SPEAKER_06 24:25

The last, yeah, there are some that are down in that in that range. Um the ones that we were buying EMS for our all of our EMS areas and we put in the the schools here in town and whatnot. Um, those were 1200, but those were the Phillips Heart Start um monitors and um the refurbs. Um, yeah, there is a couple places you can get refurbs online. Some places require you to have a doctor's prescription, but that is easy to get because any doctor in his right mind is going to write that prescription for you. Um, I know a number of people here in town that have AEDs in their house just because they have a person in the house that's at risk. And you know, it's it's not such a big expense that it keeps you from doing it. Um, I think every law enforcement vehicle in the county um now has an AED uh on board. So there's the the cost, the the cost is inconsequential.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Right. I I will I will add that you know it's the it's a way that some folks who maybe want to contribute from a sponsorship perspective, that's a great way of sponsoring. Um we collaborated with Dr. Sam Patel, and a lot of folks who are listening into the podcast probably know Sam, uh, but he is uh an orthopedic surgeon and he helped us coordinate, making sure we got the right AED and so forth. And so I'm sure that most people probably have a doctor or a paramedic or EMT that that shoot at your ranges. Um, I would just say collaborate with somebody who really knows what they're talking about and knows what they're doing and get one of those. So it's it's not a huge expense, um, it's a very smart expense.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Right. You can go to the Phillips website and um they sell refurbs, they sell new ones, they'll sell you the batteries, the pads, all of that stuff. And and uh Kevin was correct, you do have to, if that thing sits outside or anything, even even inside and and climate control, the pads will expire after a while. Uh and it's not the sort of thing that you can just hold in place because they're not sticking. Okay, they don't come down.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Well, and and also I know the club near me that has it, they don't leave it out at the range, especially the winter because the batteries don't hold charge so well in the cold, right? So they bring it to the match in an ice chest with heat packs.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Yeah, it took it it took me a little while to convince the former president that that we needed to buy one. Yeah, and uh in fact, in the intervening years between then and now, we've had reports of several actual saves because somebody had an AED. Oh yeah. Um, there was one, a young lady had one in her car. Uh it wasn't part of the range or anything, but she whipped it out and uh and they applied it on the range and the guy survived. So uh it's an excellent thing to have. Uh and and a good thing to have is also an emergency plan of some kind, right? So yeah uh all good advice.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

So oh and and if you take uh pretty much every uh first aid CPR class I have taken also covers AEDs now. And AEDs pretty much will tell you where to put the pads, what to do, when to shock, not to shock. Um, but they do include that training in any basic first aid course now.

SPEAKER_06 27:55

Well, all modern AEDs will not shock if they'll shock is what right.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah, the AD is gonna analyze and it's not gonna let you shock someone that doesn't need it.

SPEAKER_06 28:06

Yeah, so it's it's pretty much turn it on and follow the directions. I mean, yeah. The the nice person speaks to you and tells you exactly what to do. And um, yeah, and it's I I was I was present and um was able to be there when we actually used one on a uh a patient and brought them back. And it's pretty amazing uh when it happens. It's a it there's a lot of good feelings in this world, but that's a really good one. So and uh, you know, it's oddly enough, where Jodie and I work at the student recreation facility, they have I don't know how many saves now, but they get probably one a month because you get young people that don't pay attention to nutrition, electrolytes, and hydration, and they'll go do a workout and their their heart goes uh on them, and uh they just go over and blast them with the AED and they're back. So it's uh it it's really good that they're they're pretty much everywhere

How Guns And Divisions Got Complicated

SPEAKER_06 29:10

anymore, and it's really good to see them on ranges. I I've noticed the last several classes. I for years I've asked when I've taught classes, do you have an AED on the range? And it's been a while since I've had a range that said no.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

All right. So I got a couple of questions for Paul. I'd like I'd like to kind of pick your brain a little bit and tell us about some of the changes you've seen over the years since you started in the sport, since you started instructing to the present day. I know you mentioned earlier that you had people in classes that uh never matriculated, so to speak, because they just didn't take the final exam. But that's fine. We don't we don't really care if you don't take the final exam. If you're just there to get better with the rules, it's a good way to be a better competitor. Um, but you know, what have you seen over the years in educational challenges and in uh the way that we've uh revised our teaching methods, uh attitudes, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Well, I think the biggest changes I've seen, we'll start off with the equipment and the sport itself, and then we'll get into the teaching methods. But um when I first started, we had everybody pretty much using the same gun. Single stack 45, seven round magazines, and then it evolved. Uh compensator came first, which caused all sorts of uh controversy because it wasn't practical. Now we have top guns being carried on duty, um, which was um like a small telescope on the gun. And so that evolved into something that now is just a dot that you add to the gun. And the biggest change is the number of divisions we now have in the um categories. And uh the most recent changes, at least from a chronic perspective, that um makes it harder all the way around is first the hybrid guns, uh, mix and match, and then all the add-on parts. And knowing what's legal, what's not legal, yeah. Some triggers are almost legal, but not quite. Um it's it's made um officiating a lot more complicated in many ways, but um, I think it's also been great for the sport because it's brought more people into it. It's created a lot more participation from vendor support. And so it's part of the evolution.

SPEAKER_05 31:47

It's good.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Yeah, I remember when I started, there was nothing but wood burn in 1911, right? That's what everybody shot. You either shot in 1911 or you shot a revolver, and that was it. So the innovation is yeah, industry innovation is is often hard to just keep up with, right? Um, I think we do okay with it, but there's always somebody building a better mousetrap out there, out there, and then of course it they run a foul of certain division rules with it.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

So yeah, I remember one situation that happened down in Frankfurt where I get called to a stage and we had a competitor who had one of these uh specialized guns, and probably uh an inch, fourth inch of the slag was welded onto the barrel. Right, he's shooting limited. And I looked at that and I said, That's a barrel weight. And so we moved into open. Just to double check, I got a couple more calls. So I had Gary call Troy, and Troy said, Yep, that's a barrel weight. 15 minutes later or so he calls Gary back and said, John had approved that gun last night. And so we moved the guy back to open and apologized profusely, and then he continued.

SPEAKER_06 33:13

Oh was that the very first sight tracker gun?

SPEAKER_05 33:18

Yeah, yeah.

Better RO Training With Tech And Video

SPEAKER_05 33:20

It was brand new.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

But uh yeah, teaching that I think um, you know, I think when I took the class the very first time, Steve Callum taught it. And it was old overhead projectors and slides, uh and transparencies. We had a little book that we go through, and all the tests were manual. I think uh since we brought on uh Jody and Kevin to assist with the technology, we've had significant advances in technology used to help us teach better and free up time from the classroom where we're teaching the basic stuff, moving that online so we can spend more time on the practical training ours need when they're out on the range. And um I think it's been great. And one of the big things that I think I was very happy with was when I didn't have to grade those tests manually.

SPEAKER_06 34:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah, I only had to do like multi-gun tests briefly and it sucked. So I was glad that we changed it.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Oh man, grading all those tests was always uh you just have to sit down in the afternoon and just grade test after test after test.

SPEAKER_04 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

And then mail it back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

I'd always try to get it done within a week of when the class was taught. And sometimes it was very difficult.

SPEAKER_06 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

But I I think we've moved in a very good direction by using technology better than we had. And you know, pretty much I would finish all the classroom stuff on Saturday on the RO class and devote Sunday to all the range exercises, including an hour or two of uh simulations where we're actually having them run through courses and uh doing bad things with a dummy gun and seeing how many people catch it and don't catch it, and then talking about it, and then do all the light fire on Sunday and still finish up by usually one o'clock or so. And I think the students have learned a lot more by us doing that that way than the old way that we did.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Right. Take the hands-on is is super important. Um, if we look at our evaluations from the seminars, that's always probably the thing that gets the highest grade is uh what did you like about the seminar? We get a few that says, oh, the the rules and stuff, and I'm like, yeah. Okay, uh that's great. But you know, most of them are are grading uh the live fire is their is their most uh popular thing in the whole class. So yeah, range exercises, simulations, all anything hands-on, I think. And we're gonna continue to strive to to do more hands-on work, both in the lecture portion, because we do have some tabletop exercises now and some uh discussions and some demos and stuff like that. But uh yeah, well, that's good to hear. Uh it's good to hear that that over the years that the evolution has worked out well.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Um yeah, but I don't know what the student success rate is uh in the old days. I and they don't know everybody's stats, but I I was getting about 96% or above new arrows out of every class I taught.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Would I have somebody that never passed the final exam?

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

You think I had less than a handful over the years?

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Yeah. I have like this year I had a I had a class with quite a few, but they were the the reasons for they just took the class, I think, too, because they own the range, but um but yeah, usually I get a hundred percent pass rate, or there's like one clap person in each class that doesn't pass, that doesn't even finish the exam. And I I give them plenty of opportunities. I'll even issue them a new exam when the first one expires and you know try to prod them to complete their exam, but some people just don't want to, right, and that's their choice.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it's I think it's counterproductive to to pay to go to a class and spend that day and a half or so in a weekend doing it and not take the test. But yeah, I mean, that's you. If if that's all you wanted to do was get a better handle on the rules and and get some understanding, that's great too. I mean, it does help make you a better competitor, um understanding the rules a little better. So uh, but we can't make them take the test, right? I see most of my failures as as people not really either reading the directions or misformatting the rules numbers or something, and then when you get that corrected for them, then they're they're good to go. But uh it's not a lot of just abject failures of people not getting the material or passing the test.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah, I mean, and when I say fail fail, they didn't fail the class, they just never finish the test or never started it.

SPEAKER_06 38:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I probably have close to 100% of people that start the test that pass, but there's always most classes of any size, there's one or two that just never start the test, and you you follow up with them later and they ignore you and or they come back and say, No, I just was taking it for the knowledge. I I don't really don't want to be an RO.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

I don't want to be an RO. I just wanted to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:55

Hopefully the class didn't scare them off. Well, I've even had some people, one or two over the years have spoken up as we do introductions and was like, I'm not really here to be an RO. I'm not probably going to take the test. I don't want to certify. I just want the knowledge. And it's like, okay. And um, of course, I've also had a couple people show up that said that, and then it came out later. What they were really doing was trying to copy the presentation to use in their own sport. So, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I would tell you, I do certainly encourage people to take the the class, um, at least the level one, because I think it actually makes you a better competitor. And even if you don't plan to work a match, but to take the class, take the exam, get certified. Having a better understanding of the rule set actually makes you a more comprehensive competitor. Um, you know the rules, you know what you can do, what you can't do. Um, you can, you know, if somebody maybe makes a mistake and and you can stand up and say, no, this is what the rules say, and I can I know where to find it in the rule book, et cetera. But I have always encouraged people to take the the um classes because I think it actually helps the shooting side of it as well. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

And that's a good point, Dan, that uh if if you're educated in the rules, you can't have a guy that's RO in you, whether he's certified or not. We all know that a lot of local matches, there's not a lot of certified ROs sometimes, try to make a call that's absolutely wrong, right? But if you know the rules, you can refute that. You know, politely, courteously argue about it, show it to them in the rules, and then you're good to go.

SPEAKER_05 40:44

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

I think um another thing that improved in our teaching when thinking about it is the use of videos in the classroom. I get a lot of comments about how helpful it is to actually see what happens. It eliminates a lot of surprises when they actually start running shooters.

unknown 41:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

And it gives us a lot of topics to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah, in fact, some of those videos are kind of dual use because you can um you can use that video. There's one in particular that uh does shows you an early draw and also a creeping penalty, right? Right, yeah. So you can kind of dual use those things and say, okay, here's where you crept, here's where this happened.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yep, but if you'd have called the creeping penalty, it wouldn't have deque'd.

SPEAKER_05 41:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Yeah, actually movement before the start signal that happened.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Right. So it should have been a false start. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, is like some of our videos I point out, oh, there's a drop step, or you know, when they ask what an extraordinary circumstance is for to arbitrate a DQ, like this video, if this guy would have DQ'd, that would have been a you know example of an exceptional circumstance. But um, we have a few videos that are really old that I'd like to see replaced or whatever, but they still have good teaching purposes to keep them in there.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Yep, like the one where the guy runs into the wall and knocks it over.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:31

I think that was probably the very first video ever used in an NRI seminar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

And it came from Ipsick, Germany. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, you know, some of some of the other ones that I I'm like, oh, I'm pretty sure this video came from Barrie, Illinois, probably internationals. It was before I started the sport, but I recognize the walls and everything else.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

We have a couple, uh we have a couple of additional video projects that we're gonna work on that that's gonna expand that some. So I think everybody likes that. There's a lot of people that you know they like to see it demonstrated versus just reading about it or hearing about it. So yeah, uh, we're gonna continue to expand that part of our of our educational uh program.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

I think I think uh the instructors should get together one of the nationals, and I think we could probably make uh make some videos for things that we want to teach.

SPEAKER_06 43:31

Yep. So we keep talking about we've increased our

A Faster Searchable Rulebook Experience

SPEAKER_06 43:35

technology and Troy, just today a new thing came out in the world of NROI and USPSA. Um, do you want to talk about the new new version of the rulebook?

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Right. Yeah, so uh I don't know, Dan, are you familiar with that? What what Rick published today? Yeah, the the new uh updated app. Yeah, he sort of he's reformatted the rules in the app. Which makes it a lot easier to search the book. Um, and then the uh also if you go to rules uh.uspsa.org, I think that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah, yeah, there's also a link on the normal rules page too.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Right. There's a new version of the rules that uh allows you to just uh go down in columnar or tabular form and go down to one one and click it, and it brings the whole list and you go over to it, it's a lot easier to search, right? So the topics are there, the the subsections are listed there, and then when you click it, you go over to the actual subsection and and then it's spelled out right there rather than flicking through a book. So I mean, I I mentioned this to Jody yesterday. Just because it's a rule book doesn't mean it necessarily has to be in book form, right? So any way to get to get to the rules the easier and faster, I think, is is a good thing. So that's a new thing coming out. It was pushed today, so it should be available for anybody that wants to go on there and listen.

SPEAKER_06 44:57

Yeah, you will have to update your app. Um, I had to update the app on my iPhone twice this morning before it finally took, and I got this once.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I'm just checking Android.

SPEAKER_06 45:07

Yeah, and it's still what it used to be. Another feature is anything, any term that is in the glossary that's mentioned in a rule, that's a link you can click on it and it opens that glossary definition up for you. If it makes it a reference to another rule, that's clickable, takes you right to that rule or an appendix, you know, anything. It's it's very much more user-friendly, lots less page flipping. Um, so and I think uh certainly the younger folks that are used to this type of format will find it more uh more friendly to the way they want to do things, uh, way they want to surf through uh information. So I think it's a a great step forward.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

And uh um so and Kevin, I would add even even um beyond the app, you can actually you can download and put it um on your device, you can put it on your iPad, you can put it on your phone. I would encourage everybody to have this um because if you have a question about a rule, maybe the first thing you should do before arguing with the RO or the even the RM is you should look up the rule so that way when the CRO or the RM comes over, you can say, This is the rule that I'm talking about, this is you know what I have a question about, um, because it helps everybody. It makes the whole thing go faster. Everybody has access to this, so put it locally on your device and utilize it.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

So it looks like um the Android version isn't quite ready. But just to reassure everyone, we're still keeping the option for the PDF on the website where you can download it and put it on your device, and there's still gonna be the option to get it printed. This is just gonna be an additional format that's uh doesn't require having a PDF reader that's a little more modern. So don't panic. If you like your PDF, you can keep your PDF.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

You can even print the rule book out if you want to, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Well, or you order it from Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

I mean, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

We like to have it available in all the formats.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Yeah, I'm a paper and pen kind of guy still, but uh I do like a printed rulebook just for casual browsing, but this tool it makes it a lot faster and easier. Yeah, and I'm not averse to the technology, it works great. Um, but you know, like you were mentioning, Dan, when you you know go look it up and show the show the RM before you, you know, kind of put your foot in your mouth. Um many years ago, when all we had were paper rule books, I had a call and a guy was asking me a question and he's demanding that he could do this. And he said, it says it right here in my book. And he has the rule book open and I'm looking at it and I'm I'm looking at it and I go, that that has italicized and US rules listed in it. I go, what year is that? He goes, This is 2004.

SPEAKER_06 48:01

Um the original green book. There's your problem.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Right. So this will help you absolutely stay current, you know. But a book's the book, right? I mean, he had a rule book. Yeah, just a little out

USPSA Updates On Classifiers And Strategy

SPEAKER_02 48:20

of date. A little out of date. That's right.

SPEAKER_06 48:23

You know, I'm surprised at how many of the Amazon printed books I see in classes. It's it's close to half in some classes.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

So Dan, tell us a little bit about what's going on with USPSA, uh, maybe the new classifiers, how those are working out, any other things that are popping up on the horizon?

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Yeah, a couple things. So um one is some new classifiers came out. Um, but I think one of the feedback that we got, and there's going to be a version two of classifiers that come out in 26. Um, one of the um pieces of feedback that we got some from some members was that a lot of the more recent classifiers um were excellent for large outdoor ranges, but not so excellent for smaller indoor ranges. Um, and we we certainly took that feedback and were looking and designing some uh um classifiers that will be coming out that are more designed for a more narrow bay, a more restricted shooting area, um, but can still be fun, challenging uh classifiers. So that'll be coming out later in the year. Um, one of the things I wanted to share with everybody was that um earlier this year, at the end of February, uh the board got together for a strategic planning retreat. Um the board and uh a lot of the senior um management team from the USPSA. And we spent a weekend together. Um, as you can imagine, no, it wasn't it wasn't an official board meeting, it was a strategic planning session, no votes were taken, et cetera. But what we did do is we came up with some strategy of where we wanted to take the organization and came up with tangible ideas and things that we wanted to work on for the coming year. Coming out of that, we came up with about 20 specific um ideas of things that we wanted to implement. Um, we've already accomplished 10 of those. So we're sitting here in June. So um just several months later, we've got half of the list completed. Uh, and then we think that probably about the another half, another four or five will be completed in the next couple quarters. Um, and then there's another five or six that are are still going to be working on later in the year. But I did want to highlight a few of those because I think it's really important to for everybody to hear, you know, what are the board in collaboration with the management team working together to improve and enhance USPSA. So one of the things uh that we're doing is for many of you who attended the member meetings at nationals, um, sometimes I've been to some of those meetings and there would be five competitors that would come to a, and it was a whole group of board members and senior staff and you know, five competitors. Uh, it really wasn't the best way to communicate to our membership. Uh, there was a lot of folks that didn't come to nationals but still wanted to be able to participate. Um, we've got over 45,000 members now. So one of the things that we uh approved and and uh are changing is that rather than having those membership meetings at national events, we are gonna have an annual report to the membership. Uh that will be on August 9th. It will be um live online. We'll be sharing uh progress of the organization. We'll be talking about financials, uh, the audited financial statements. We're gonna also include some awards and recognition of folks who've been contributing to USPSA. Um and we'll certainly be taking questions, um, even questions in advance to address concerns, questions that the members may have. We think that this will be a better way of having a specific time, date, and time uh that folks can dial in, that they can um, you know, go online and participate in that annual report. And we want to be able to share that with everybody. So that's one of the big areas that came out of it uh of our meeting. I'd say a category of topic, and there were several things that came out of this, is really how can we as an organization give back to our clubs, our sections, and how do we grow the sport? So there's a few things that we've been doing from that perspective. So we've we've created a club recognition program, uh, new club recognition. Um, those are a couple of things I think you may have seen recently, uh Rick posted as new members come along, you can accumulate activity or you can accumulate points and exchange those points for things like timers or maybe a case of targets or whatever it might be to help your club as you're as you're growing your club. Uh is as part of that, uh, we also set aside some uh budgeted money for each of the area directors to stay focused on their area in growing the sport. And so if a club is in need, say they're they're gonna host a major, they're in need of some additional props, the area directors have some budget available to them uh to be able to support those clubs that are doing those major events, or maybe it's just a new club that needs a little a little help. Um, so there is some money available that we've set aside at the discretion of the area directors for each of their areas uh to really help the organization, the clubs in those areas um grow. I think that's that's a really important thing. As part of that overall uh viewing of how we're gonna give back, we've changed one of the processes who relates to our national events. Um, one of the we set up a national selection committee. Uh, it's made up of some board members and some non-board members. Uh that committee uh issued a request for proposals. So we submitted out to the clubs. If you're interested in hosting a national event at your range, um, these are the things that we're going to be looking for. We outlined those in the RFP and we asked for people to submit proposals. We are in the process of that right now. We've had our first um submissions. Uh we've had uh, I think it was 10 or 11 clubs who reached out. Um, some are interested in one particular nationalism or another, uh, or they have some different ideas on how they might want to do that. We're evaluating those proposals as we speak. Um, I anticipate um we're working um with Alan to hopefully um in the relatively near future. I don't want to give a specific date, but hopefully by um the within the next month or so of being able to start announcing when uh we will have nationals, where they will be, what the formats will look like. Um but we really are taking a close look and hearing the feedback from the members of what nationals look like, uh, what are the formats, where are they located, uh, et cetera. So we want to make sure that we're delivering for the membership on exactly uh what they're looking for. Um and lastly, in case you um everybody didn't know, uh in March we also passed a new set of bylaws uh that are available online. Uh we really kind of restructured a lot of the things, governance perspective that we have as an organization. Uh, we think this is a was a great step forward to kind of codify some of the things that we have been doing or wanted to do and make some changes that I think are definitely beneficial to the overall organization. So, long story short, lots of great ideas coming. Um, I will anticipate continuing with the strategic planning retreats uh with the board and the senior staff to continue to come up with new ideas on continuous improvement of USPSA. Um, it's not just about growing the sport, but that's part of it, but it's also making it a better experience for the clubs and the competitors who are out there, you know, who are really the lifeblood of our organization. So as you as you're uh working at your clubs and your shooting matches, and it doesn't matter whether you go to a major match or you only shoot your locals, all of that is great. What we do want to hear is provide your feedback. Send your feedback to your area director and say, hey, I've got this idea. Sometimes those ideas work, sometimes they don't. Um, I know that this whole group on the call has heard me say it many times. I like to try new things. Some of those new things are gonna be great, and some of those are gonna be terrible. And um, but you get better by always trying new things, even if some of them don't work the best. So nonetheless, that's kind of what we're looking for and uh you know what we're gonna continue to do, continuous improvement.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

Thank you. And that trying new things, things is not a bad idea, but you know, sometimes it works out like those Harry Potter jelly beans. You get a good one or a bad one.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

Well, I will tell you an example. We tried, we tried here in Ohio is we tried to, and I know this works in some places, so I'm not bashing it. What I'm saying for the in Ohio, we tried a staff reset match, and we thought this was just going to be amazing that you know the competitors could just shoot and then they could just sit down and they didn't have to do anything. And what I can tell you is the feedback that we got in Ohio is they hated it. They just didn't like it. And they didn't like it because they the the comments that we received was I felt disconnected from the match. I, you know, getting out there and walking the stages and taping targets just kept me, you know, involved and mentally in the game. When I was just sitting down for an hour before I shot for, you know, 10 to 12 seconds, I couldn't stay mentally in the game. So the people around here didn't like it. I know that it works out really well in some other places, but after all the feedback we got, we've never run another staff reset match.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

But I know I would hate it because sitting around, I would just all my joints would freeze up and up taping and like keep moving and you know get my steps in for the day.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

But those are ex that's an example of something we thought would be amazing and it was not. So that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Well most of the major IPSC matches, level level four and up at least, will have staff that resets, but it's kind of two sets of staff. They have a reset staff, and then they have uh they have a group that's you know RO in the stages, and then of course their hierarchy is a little bit different than the way we do it here. But um those competitors, most of the international competitors uh are aghast at the fact that in the US at our national championships, the competitors actually reset targets, right? And one of their comments is, well, you know, what if what if they're cheating? What if they're doing this? I was like, Well, we see very little of it. I mean, occasionally we'll see a pre-patch target that's suspicious, but um, you know, it's like we don't see too much of that, and everybody seems to do it, and it keeps you a little bit more involved. But I mean, they they won't let you out on the on the stage if you've not the guy that just shot or a delegate, right? And all you're doing is observing targets, you're not touching them. So there's different schools of thought, it's just how many, how many people you have. But I've heard the same few feedback that you did, Dan, that you know the competitors felt like they they didn't have anything to do, right? It's just time wasted in between shooting one stage and moving on to the next. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

Well, it just kind of amplifies that we go out there to shoot, like we spend all day shooting a match, but we only end up shooting for like what less than an hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah, not even now. Yeah, not even now. I mean, you think about if you if you shoot, you know, even at Nashville's, if you shoot, say, 18 stages, maybe you're shooting for at the most 20 or 30 seconds if you're not super fast. So even at 30 seconds times 18 stages, it's nine minutes. Nine minutes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:39

Yeah, and we love the sport so much that we spend all sorts of time and money and take classes and train and drive fire and do all sorts of things we can spend less time shooting. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Yeah, that just seems counterproductive.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

But I mean, it's a it's a factor of the sport, you know, and I mean it's it's kind of historically that's sounding cliche, but it's the way that we've always done it, and it's it's difficult to break that mold sometimes. But I mean, there are different things that that we could do. I've seen places where they they got a Boy Scout troop out to to help patch and reset or to paint targets for steel challenge, and that's okay as long as they know what they're doing. But if you got to train a set of kids, then it's kind of a waste of time, right? Yeah, yeah, because and you also add a little bit of additional liability that way. But like I said, most of the bigger international matches I've been to, the local NROI folks uh, you know, are the ones that are helping on the stage, and the IROA folks are the ones that are running the running the stage itself. So it works out.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:49

All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

Well, Paul, you got anything else you want to let us know? Some enlightenment. Uh keeping we might be keeping you up past your bedtime, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

So I just want to say, um I've been in the sport for a long time and I've met a lot of fantastic people. Um what kept me coming back year after year and working more and more matches was getting to socialize with the crew I worked with and friends I'd see at Nashville's and only at Nashville's. And um I think it was important that we had time to socialize a little bit every evening. Uh I've been at some matches where you know we'd be out there before sunrise and leave after sunset trying to get to McDonald's before they close so we could get dinner.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

First both I gun match, for example, in Reno. But um, I've met a lot of great people, I've made some lifelong friends, and it's something I do not regret, even though some of the weather didn't cooperate. One of what we do is get back and tell stories about hey, how bad were your stage? Oh mine was worse than yours.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Just share your misery. But yeah, that's an that's an important part. It's it's this sport is all about the people that are involved in it. And uh, you know, at all levels and all directions and all jobs and everything else, it's always all about the people involved in it. And that's what you hear from most of our competitors. You know, why do you do this? Well, just like Paul said, I get to go shoot with my buddies, have a good time. I see people I haven't seen in a while, you know, because they live halfway across the country. Uh, I worked a uh a stage at the single stack national's years back with Paul and uh and my girlfriend, right? And that was a that was a great match. We had a good time doing that because we had opportunity in the afternoon to get together and and have a cold adult beverage and talk about the day and do whatever, you know. So uh that's the thing about it is uh and if you'll see this in any RO cadre around the world, um that the the ROs are all friends with one another and they all tend to hang out and and shoot the bull at the end of the day, and and they're never really talking about all the calls they made or whatever, they just talk about how their stage ran and and you know maybe something unusual happened. So uh I think the us versus them attitude we used to see it back in the old days is is long gone, and I think we're seeing more professional ROs all over the place. So and that's due to people like you, Paul, teaching people how to do it. So we certainly appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

Well, I wouldn't have done it if I didn't enjoy it. So right, I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, I I loved uh teaching the classes, um, even more so than I loved the RO ing or RMing. Um, although I enjoyed that too. But teaching classes was the best opportunity that you've made available to me, and um it was the thing I really enjoyed the most. Good. Much appreciated.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

Yeah, and we're gonna miss you. I mean, sure we're still gonna see you around, hopefully. Well, I probably won't because I don't come to matches in that neighborhood, but um you don't know what you're missing, Jody.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

No, no, no, we don't want to hear that, Kevin.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

But you know, if all I'm at race gun, if you wander on the range, you know, we could chat.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:38

Well, yeah, my mobility is not what it used to be. But if I can get out there, yeah, we will get out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

Um They're probably doing RMs. Just call you know, call us on the radio, we'll come pick you up your car and you you could be our grand marshal on a golf cart.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Face with backwards and wave at everybody. We'll get you a sash.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:08

Do I get a crown too? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

I'm sure we can find the Burger King nearby.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

I'm sure Burger King will have a crown for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

The king. You might have to go, you might have to compete with the emperor now, but you know, he's not really the emperor.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

Well, I think that was a self-appointed title.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

So oh yeah. Yeah, he granted himself that title, just like there have been some IPSC regional directors that declared themselves RD for life.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

So the emperor sat in one of my classes I taught in Pennsylvania. And uh I even referred to him, oh we're honored. We've got the emperor in this class.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

That's his area too, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:57

The Emperor.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

All right. Well, Dan, Paul, anything else you want to add before we put the slam the door on this thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

No, I I think we're good. I I uh as I said kind of in the beginning, um, I think there's a lot of people who owe a lot uh in this sport to Paul. So, Paul, it's it's always been an honor to work with you. And so thank you very much from the bottom of my heart.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:30

Well, thank you, Dan. I appreciate that. And like I say, I wouldn't have done any of this if I hadn't enjoyed it. Unfortunately, even though Corey reminded me from time to time, I make a lot of mistakes, which I do, but we're only human. And uh listen to every podcast that you guys have done, and you're really improving. Thank you. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:53

Well, after what? What episode are we on now? 1022. Yeah, I we finally figured it out.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:59

100 iterations, we finally got it figured out.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

I've been enjoying this. I've enjoyed everybody I've worked with. Well, I can't say that. Most everybody I've worked with.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:11

Yeah, we knew you'd be lying if you said everybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

There were a couple of my trying torn off effect years ago in Vegas.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:20

I had this one RO, and her voice was like nails on a um and screech out every shooter, green, she's going hot, eyes and ears.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

Oh god. And I finally looked at the other RO I was working with. I said, What do you think? You think two of us can handle this stage? He says, Oh yeah, yeah, no problem. I call the RM, he shows up and said, Hey, if you're running into shortages anywhere, we don't need TROs on this stage. He said, No, I think we're okay. About a half hour later, he comes back and says, Give me that RO. And she checked up the timer and I whatever, excuse me, the R would like to talk to you. Why don't you give the timer to meet? And who did she end up with that night? I'm going back to the hotel. My good buddy Brian Hanna.

Why The Sport Is Really People

SPEAKER_03 1:09:15

You still got the person in my stage.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:20

Paul, you know good SOB.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:22

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, so it's been a great ride. I've uh really enjoyed the sport. Uh actually it's been kind of a passion of mine for a long time. And um, I've enjoyed all of you. I think the instructor core is uh by far better and getting better every year because of the new technology we use and the new teaching uh methods we learn. And I really enjoyed when we did the academies because we could see each other teach and pick up tips from each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:58

Yeah, we need to pick up on another one or two of those at some point. But man, the the year gets so busy, it's just hard to plan it. That's for sure. It does, it does.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:08

So I'll miss you guys, and um thanks for having me on the podcast. Oh, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:13

Yeah, thanks, Paul, and you're gonna call it stay in touch.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:18

Welcome.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:20

All right. Well, thanks everybody. Um, and uh I I can't let this go, Paul. Um, I've got to tell the story of the first time I met Paul.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

Um I was resisting telling that, but I'm glad you are.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:36

So we were working the Open L10 Nationals in Missoula, Montana, and that is where I tested out for my RM card. And back in those days, uh DNRY, who was at the time John Amadon, um, would just grab whichever range masters that were on the range that he could find, and they formed the uh review board to it. Now the review board is just the instructors. Um and I had the misfortune of showing up to my review without a rule book.

unknown 1:11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:09

And there's this guy there. I thought I knew most of the range masters. There's this guy there who I've never met before named Paul. Turns out he had just been anointed a rangemas at a prior match, not too much before that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:26

Um might have been one or two years then it was over PASA that I got my RM.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:31

Yeah, I think it was past the year. Yeah. And so Paul, Paul had the the great misfortune to be present to my greatest indignity um as a range officer. And uh he's gotten a lot of mileage over out of that story over the years. So um just know, Paul, that I do keep telling that story in classes, and I tell it to all of my RM students, and I um so that that that will live. But I always think of you when I think of that story because you were always the one that was telling it.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:10

Well, I told it a few times myself. Everybody that's wondering, as Kevin said he made the misfortune of showing up without a rule book. I said, Where's your rule book? And the second mistake he made was saying, I know the rules, I don't need it. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

Yeah, that's like uh chum in the waters in the sea of sharks.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

Yeah, so the first question was, What are the range commands? You got them down path. Second question, he looked at Ray Hearst who said, Ray, can I borrow your rule book? Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:46

Yeah. And then they about every third question, they would ask me the range commands. And until I finally fumbled the range commands, I it felt like eight, nine hours later. Um, my watch said it was like 45 minutes. Um yeah, I finally fumbled the range commands, and they decided that that would be a good time to take a vote. So yeah, it was that was a lesson well learned, and and now I never go anywhere without a rule book. Of course, I like most modern people, I never go anywhere without my phone.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:18

But yeah, awesome. But uh yeah, it was a good experience meeting you, Kevin. And you actually was gracious enough to take us out and buy us a beer afterwards.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:29

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that was an expensive bar tab that night. But uh yeah, well worth it. And so anyway, thanks, Paul. It and team teaching that class in Phoenix remains one of my my highlights of of my instructor career. I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:50

So well, I I did too. And uh yeah, the second day we were pretty much ad-living it, you know, we're doing these uh range exercises inside the classroom and scenarios. And uh first time we'd ever worked together, we hadn't hurt rehearsed anything. And so it worked out pretty darn good, I thought.

unknown 1:14:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:13

Yeah, we had a lot of we you know, and and a lot of the students in that class, as I would see them at matches and future and classes later on down the road when they're taking these or classes and whatnot, I always refer back to that class and mention that it was such a really good class.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:30

So I had one guy come up to me.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:33

I wish we could do that format more, but it's there aren't many facilities like that out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

I remember one of the students came up to me right at the end of Sunday as we were dismissing the class and said, Wow, this class was so much better than I thought it was gonna be. We had two of the top guys, most senior guys in USPSA teaching this instead of some hack from the club.

unknown 1:14:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:01

Some hack from the club.

Wrap-Up, Contact Info, And Next Steps

SPEAKER_06 1:15:06

Yeah. Oh well. Anyway, well, thank you, Paul, and and thanks for the memories.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Uh thanks for everybody. Yeah, Dan, thank you for for coming tonight and sharing some insights with us as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

Yeah, my my pleasure to be able to share the evening with you all and and especially with Paul.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:27

All right. Well, we'll be back with you again in two weeks. And uh we have we have a lot of mail that is accumulated in the mailbag. So the next episode will almost certainly be a mailbag episode. We've got uh a couple guests that we're working on lining up, probably the episode after that. So we're trying not to do all mailbag all the time. And so if you have ideas for guests that you think we should have on the show, um, please send them to us and and we'll take a good hard look at it. And for questions, comments, uh podcast ideas, uh blog article ideas, whatever you've got rules at uspsa.org. All three of us get those, and we generally have a pretty quick turnaround. Of course, Troy went on vacation last week and the cup runneth over uh there were some hard ones too. And there were some hard ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

It's like, well, where's Troy?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:21

Oh boo hoo.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:24

It's like I don't I don't want to answer this wrong.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:27

Right. Yeah, so um uh yeah. Well, Jody likes fan mail, so yeah, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:37

I'm trying to think of a blog post for this week.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

What can what what button can I press this week?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:44

Exactly. So all right. Anyway, as always, uh you can reach us at rules at uspsa.org and we we'd love to hear your comments and your questions and all that. With that, thanks everybody, and we will see you again in two weeks. Good night.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

Good night.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:02

Good night. Good night. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find nroi seminars under the nroi tab at usbsa.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRY tab at USPSA.org.