Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_07 0:04

This is the NROI podcast, your source for factual information for USPSA and STSA competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Officers Institute, United States Practical Shooting Association, and Steel Challenge Shooting Association.org slash rules, and on the USPSA and STSA apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rights for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Rules discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings that are published as per the bylaws United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules should be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 100. Recorded. Where are we? Mid-May 2026. I'm gonna have to read that. Anyway, good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Aneroite Podcast. I'm Kevin Elmell. As usual, my cohorts are here. Good evening, Jody Human. Good evening. And good evening, Pure McManus. Good evening, everybody. And Torah we have a special guest tonight. Do you want to go ahead and introduce your special guest and let's get this thing going?

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Yes, indeed. So tonight we have Mr. Ken Kester with the National Association of Sports Officials NASO. Many of us in in NROI have been members of NASO, which is the organization that represents uh referees and officials and umpires, etc. And uh NASO has partnered with us. We're gonna be offering some, uh they're gonna be offering some reduced uh uh membership dues and quite a good insurance package, etc. So without any further ado, I'm gonna let Mr. Kester uh tell us about this program and then we'll ask questions

What NASO Does For Officials

SPEAKER_04 2:10

and talk about it a little bit. So welcome, Ken. Good to have you.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thanks for the opportunity to be involved. Um, yeah, NESO is the National Association of Sports Officials. Um, we started roughly 46 years ago. Uh we represent all sports, all levels um across the map. But the role that I'm in within the organization, I'm an official myself. I'm a college football replay official for the Big Ten. Um I've worked football most of my career, I've worked basketball. We've got a lot of officials in the building that are producing things to help sports officials. We spend kind of every day of our lives trying to advocate, protect, and educate sports officials, um, some more than others, but uh we're out there, and the uniqueness of what I do gives me an opportunity to work with not only organizations like yourself, but with different organizations around the country and different sports. That could be rowing, that could be sailing, that could be pickleball, tennis, um, but also basketball, football, baseball. Um, we've got youth organizations all the way up through high school, uh, adult rec, professional college, so the full stream of what's within the officiating world. There's just over 33,000 members of NESO right now, and we continue to grow. And I think that's a positive for our industry that we bring in so many different sports and so many different people, uh, one voice, a collective group. There's only one organization in the world that is just focused solely on officiating, and that's NESO. And that allows us to just do things and put together resources and training and packages to protect officials, so that when they're out there doing this, which is more often than not for the love of the game, the love of the sport, um, that they have that protection behind them, they have that advocacy behind them so that they're treated better, so that they can perform better, and so that they can go out there and make the game better. So that's what we do. Um, we produce a monthly magazine that's in its 50th year of publication. Pretty incredible for a niche publication. We've been celebrating 50 years all year this year. Um, you know, the publishing industry is challenging, um, but we've been able to create a niche. We started at NASO, and really in the first year, four years into when referee was being produced, we kind of became the National Association of Referee subscribers. There was about 7,000 members and about half of them stayed, and that led to the genesis of starting NASO. So now we have about 33,000 members within NASO. Hopefully more will continue to join and grow. And we have about 7,000 members that just get the magazine itself, which is great. I love them for it, but certainly most of the people right now are focusing their attention on what NASO can provide to them.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Nice.

The $69 Membership For NROI

SPEAKER_04 5:05

So let's talk a little bit about um you know membership, what you get for it, how much it's gonna cost USPSA members, etc. Or NROI certified officials, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

We put together a package deal for NR NROI certified officials, and I I think it it will really help. Um if you went out on the own on your own and signed up as of June 1st to become an NASL member, right now it's just 129. As of June 1st, it'll be 134. Um that that's a 12-month membership, which we think is still quite fair, but we also understand that there's some uniqueness to other sports out there, and we don't cover practical shooting in the magazine every month. You know, we don't cover the sport that you're working within the month, within the magazine every month. It doesn't mean that there's not things in there that aren't generic to sports official as a whole. So we put together a membership package that will cost $60, is it $69? I should know this. $69. Yeah, $69. $69. And so that will be a 12-month membership, and it's only for NROI USPSA members to take advantage of that. Um it's a good rate, and I think it's something that's beneficial for the members. What will it get you? One edition of the magazine that I talked about, which will come digitally to everyone, you'll have the opportunity to then be covered from an insurance perspective. Um, you know, I I've done a little research on the on the sport that you're involved in, and I don't know nearly enough as these experts that are on the call with you tonight, to those that are involved with the sport itself. But certainly liability is an important issue. Um, you're dealing with a lot of things that can lead to injury and property damage. So you want to have a great liability package that stands behind you when you're out there doing the work of an NRI official, NROI official. So that's there. Six million dollars, $14 million, uh, six million dollars per recurrence and $14 million aggregate. Those seem like huge numbers, but if something does happen that's pretty significant, um, you're gonna want to have that because when the attorneys get involved and something happens and claims start being made, the meter runs pretty quickly. Um also included beyond liability is game call and assigners coverage. Really, what that is, is it doesn't involve bodily injury. It doesn't involve property damage. There's not a specific amount with that claim, but what I kind of call it is a pound of flesh category. Somebody's mad at a judgment that you made. Someone thinks that you haven't been fair to them in a ruling, and they want some of the people to pay for their misery. It's probably where we get the most amount of our claims right now from parents that think their son or daughter have been wronged, or from uh a coach that thinks that they aren't moving on in the playoffs because of a block charge call that went against his or her team. Um, so you know, right now that's an important thing. Again, nobody got hurt. Nothing, you know, nothing happened with regards to property damage. There was no libel or slander. It's just someone thinks they've been wronged, and we don't live in a very civil society right now. So they're gonna make someone pay for their misery. Um, and so that's important to have. You haven't seen any of that activity yet within your organization, and I hope you don't, but it's certainly there within the sports industry itself. So it's a very unique coverage to NESL. And then obviously we've got assault coverage. Uh, you know, I don't think in your particular sport that a lot of that is going on, but you can turn on YouTube, you can go on the X or Facebook or any in anywhere on the internet, and you'll see examples of assaults that are going on to officials all across the nation every week, every weekend. Um, you know, our founder just recently passed away, and he had a quote that said sports is life with the volume turned up. And I like it. We don't live in we don't live in a civil society, so you know, some of this is to be expected. Uh what's going on with the youth sports and adult rec levels, you know, we need to have this sort of protection for officials. And so God forbid something like that does happen. You have that. So you've got that, and then you've got some other additional benefits. You get a Marriott VIP card that I think is one of the best things we offer. I use it probably as much as anyone as I travel around the country. You don't just have to use it when you're officiating or when you're doing something through NROI. You can use it for your family, you can use it for vacation, you can use it for other work trips you might have, but it really gets you some significantly discounted rates at Marriott properties across the country. Um, and it really, really works well. So it's a neat benefit to be able to offer to our NASO members. And then the last thing that's kind of a focus on is really what we call MICP. We're an organization of acronyms, but it's a management information and consultation program. And this is where something happens in officiating that you don't kind of have the answer to. And I'm not talking so much about rule book stuff. I'm talking about where you've been asked to move up in a level and provide an officiating resume. Or you're not sure whether you should sign a specific agreement with some organization where you're being asked to do something that might be outside of something you're not familiar with, or you have an attorney's question that you want answered based upon something that has come your way, or a potential

Insurance Coverage Explained In Plain English

SPEAKER_01 10:40

claim that hasn't bubbled up to anything yet. You can contact an ASO and we can really help you through all of that. If we don't know the answer, we'll find the answer and we work with a team of attorneys and experts within the industry. But it could be something as simple as a tax question that you have on a dub on a 1099 or something that you have to file with regards to officiating. So there's a lot of different things within that. The package itself includes all of that. You get every single benefit that anyone that's paying $134 gets. We've just created a reduced rate because of the partnership agreement between the two organizations. And we're excited to get some of your officials into the NASO family. And I know a lot of people already are, and for that we say thank you. If you currently are a member, you will renew under this new rate. What we'll do then is we'll attach that to your previous account and we'll issue you a refund for whatever amount you have remaining on your individual account. Trust me when I say it's the easier and cleaner way. I understand someone may have to re-up another $69, but it's the cleanest way instead of trying to charge someone $17.24. That puts everybody in NROI on the same cycle for renewal and keeps everyone on the 12-month basis rolling. So that when it's renewal time, it's a lot easier for you as an organization as well as for us to just send out one thing to the whole organization. If you've been an individual member before, you know we start renewal notices about two months after you sign in. So year two of your 12-month membership, I laugh because our members are so inclined to ignore the first nine and then just act in that tenth one. But that's the membership industry as a whole. So you will not receive those renewal notices anymore, which for some people is probably the greatest benefit of all. You'll be enrolled at this rate, and it's only available because of the fact you are part of this organization and an NROI certified official.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

So, Ken, I'm my membership, I did a two-year renewal, so I don't expire till end of January 2028. Okay. So will I be able to like I guess upgrade now?

SPEAKER_01 13:01

You'll be able to do renew with MROI. So what you'll do is you'll there'll be two links. There'll be for new members who have never been a member before. Those that have never been a member, go ahead and fill out the new, and then there'll be a renew link. You'll go under the renew link. It'll ask for your membership number. You can really find that on the latest magazine you've got, or if you're not sure, you can look it up on our website. And then you can put that information in. We'll attach so that your number stays, but now I start you on the new $69 annual rate.

unknown 13:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Trust me when I tell you that's going to save you a lot of money. It won't seem like it right away because oh, I got X left. No, but then what we're going to do is calculate as of when you start your new $69, whatever amount is remaining back for until you go out in 2028, we'll send a check to you directly for that amount. And then you just are now uh on a preferred rate through NROI as opposed to being an individual member.

SPEAKER_06 14:01

Okay, cool. That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Yeah, so uh talking about the magazine and and some of the things, like you mentioned that you know we're not really in the magazine that much obviously, but there are a lot of things, and we talked about this with Russ Fortney. Uh I have to mention Russ because he's kind of the guy that got the ball rolling on all of this, um, talking about it with this, but there's a lot of things in the magazine that are relevant to officiating in general. It doesn't matter what sport you're officiating, and um there's some there's some good information there. There's also, uh, if I'm not mistaken, you have some links that that go to some training sessions about uh oh sort of interpersonal relations, um uh, you know, how not to get get yourself in a crack with with people with your mouth, et cetera, et cetera, right? I mean, you have something like that in there.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

There's a lot of things with regards to verbal jugo and other skills. You know, when we started the magazine, you know, um 50 years ago, there was a lot of multi-sport officials. Um, you know, a lot of pages applied to a lot of different people. Where we're at in 2026 is we probably have more single sport officials than we've ever had in our existence. And that's just because you can work one sport all year round. True. You couldn't used to do that. So now it that's created a challenge for us. So we have to make more of the magazine less about the individual sport of persons working and more about how can it apply to so many different people. So you'll see an all sports section in the magazine, which is just about leadership and communication and other things that apply across the spectrum. You'll see features on different individuals that don't pertain to a particular sport. You know, there's six sports we cover every month, but those become fewer and fewer pages depending on the cycle and where we're at in the calendar year. And then the features and the other things that we have within the magazine, a log column, a profiles, a getting it right, all of these things are available. And then, yeah, we produce a lot of things that can help officials across the spectrum. So all sports, some more generic type officiating articles on how to get assignments, um, what to do when someone's in your face.

Communication Skills And Training Resources

SPEAKER_01 16:20

And we're gonna make some of these things available to you on this web page that we're gonna dedicate to NROI officials. On there, you'll see the magazine every month digitally. But then you'll also see some additional things in addition to a uh, you know, uh a summary of all the benefits that are available to you, but also some of these things so that you can figure out what's your officiating IQ, what's your officiating personality, how do you officiate? You know, everyone's individual, but can you take bits and pieces from these things that we've learned over the years and collectively put them into your repertoire? And then, you know, as you guys talked about, you come in contact with competitors all the time. So verbal judo and other things with regards to communication and judgment and decision making all become really important. So I I do think you can read to the magazine and pick something up from everything. I'm not telling you, oh, read the softball pages, it's really gonna help you. But I will say that there's a lot of pages in the magazine that we do produce to try to cover the sports we don't cover in the magazine every month, but also just to help someone beyond that one particular sport he or she might work.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

That's the thing I've noticed with the magazine. A lot of your articles, especially about how to recruit officials, how to retain officials, are things we see as well.

SPEAKER_07 17:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

And um a lot of that information is really good. And it's nice to see that it's not just us having the difficulties, that it's kind of a sports-wide, nationwide issue. Um, and and it's interesting that you know, some some of the resources of the ideas they have for how to improve the situation is you know, some stuff we can apply as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

It's informative. You've got a real unique opportunity because obviously you've got so many different participants to be able to choose from. And there probably is a knowledge that you need of your sport, maybe some than other of the mainstream sports. But to be able to pull from that and and bring them in, but yeah, there's there's a lot of different things that are going on out there. Some working, some not, but there's a lot of things that are being tried because the shortage is gonna be there forever. It's funny we talk about this. In 1976, there was a shortage of officials. It's just louder now because of the internet and some of the mainstream sports are experiencing it. But yeah, I mean, I can tell you wrestling matches around the country have been scheduled around one particular official's availability since the dawn of time. You know, there's just not enough wrestling officials. So these conferences are scheduling meets based upon that particular official because they want him or her to work on this particular date. So we have to grow the pool. We have to, you know, everyone says we have to get younger. Maybe, you know, I I I work in a sport right now where we bring in a lot of young kids, but I don't know, 17, 18-year-old kids don't really know what they want in life. And so you train them for three years and then they're off doing something else, or just not in a point in their life whether they're gonna commit. I get it. Yeah. Right. But the older individuals that have been around the sport sometimes are better candidates that we don't look to enough. So um there's a lot of different ways, but we got to give them skills and resources so that they can go out there and be successful in their first three years. We had studies, you know, we we did a huge survey back in 2023 of almost 30,000 officials. Um what does that tell you? It tells you officials aren't asked their opinion very often. So they were really willing to sit down and and and do a prolonged survey how that tells you a little about our industry. But what it showed is that if they can get through that third year, they're gonna stay. And that that's not particular to any sport. So if we can go out there and put them in a position to succeed because they have a basic rules knowledge, because they know the mechanics of what they're supposed to do, and we can give them what to be successful in with regards to judgment, then they're probably gonna stick around and be successful and at least have some enjoyment out of what they're doing. If we put them out there and they're unprepared and they're getting screamed at by a parent or a competitor and they don't know and they're uncomfortable, they may not be back the next weekend.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Right. I think we see some of the same thing. We've got every year we kind of get some comments, complaints about, you know, well, your RO cadre at national championships is pretty old, right? And it's true, they're they are an older group of people, but older means experience. Older means probably retired with tone to be able to go there and do that, right? Um, and then the younger guys, uh, I have heard that from several of them. You know, I'm I'm tired of getting yelled at, I'm tired of being told I'm wrong, I'm tired of doing this, and you know, you the more you do, the thicker your skin, I believe. But you know, you have to you have to take that into account with the with the younger crowd. Plus, they don't have the you know, they don't have the time. They have a job, they probably have a young-ish family, they probably don't have a lot of vacation time to take off. And I always tell them it's it's hard to it's hard to get a guy that's got two weeks or three weeks of vacation to take a week and a half or two weeks to go work at the national championship and tell his you know family, well, sorry, we can't go to Disney or we can't go to the beach or whatever because I'm going to do this math. So it usually does not fly that well. So

SPEAKER_01 22:00

But yeah, you know, the younger generation too. I mean, we see it with the younger generation of basketball pistol. They can run like the wind and whatever else, but they're not used to having conversations because they're on their phone all day. Well, you can't attach to coach back to say I missed a call. You you gotta have a conversation, you gotta talk to them. So you know, it's this interpersonal communication that sometimes, you know, there are different sports that don't do enough training in that because they never really had to. Well, no, they have to.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Right, right. Yeah, you know, there's no shortage of uh conversations on the sidelines with officials, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

So there is certainly not. And then, you know, we'll get uh questions in our office, or we'll get mainstream media that will contact us, or they're all you know, well, there's an arrogance level to it. Well, there's not really an arrogance level, but there better be a level of confidence because you just said it. I mean, you're you're questioned a lot by both sides. 50% of the gym or the event is happy with your decision, and 50% are not. So you have to grow to learn to, what do we call it at NESO? We said we have to learn to love it when they boo. Right. I don't think there's a greater feeling in the world of the place going crazy and booing and you just standing there knowing, I just nailed that. I mean, that judgment is absolutely correct, and I know it.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

That was the right call to make, and I know it was the right call. Yeah, I'm gonna take some some guff over that. Yep. Yep. I mean, case of point, last year's College World Series where the the coach from Coastal Carolina was arguing balls and strikes, they got tossed, right? Yeah, and uh clear NCAA rule, you can't do that. Umpire was 100% correct in what he did, but you know, of course it was it was his fault that you know Coastal Carolina didn't win. So yeah, I don't think it was his fault. I think it was that coach's fault.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yep. And the the fact that you know you'll hear, well, it's such a big stage, you have to allow more. No, not really. I mean, you wouldn't have accepted that in the first game that they worked that year in in February. I don't know why you need to accept it in June. Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

No, I agree with you. That's a that's a good point. Um, it's the same thing we see it, you know, from from local matches, what we call local matches or club matches. Um you know, people going, oh, it's just a club match, which is something we call club culture, where they let things slide up to going to nationals or an air or an area championship, a level three match, where somebody that's been letting slide you know for a few months at his home club gets teamed with a call at that level, match, because they're trying to get everything right. You know, we really strive to make people do things right at the at the local level, so we don't have that issue later on down the road. But it's it's all it's an uphill battle sorts.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

I mean, that's you know, there's there's basketball officials that don't enforce uh a uniform issue, and all of a sudden uh a team's in week 12 and the coach has gone, I played 11 games and no one said anything, you know.

unknown 25:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

The first 11 just chose not to enforce it. Um so I I get it, and and those are things that we all need to strive to get better at. And consistency when you're a volunteer amateur official is the the term that's thrown around the most, but it's probably the hardest thing for us to ever achieve.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Yeah, and I mean uh I think the point of all this is is consistency is key no matter what sport you're in. And there's a lot of that sort of information available to NASO members through the magazine, through the uh online articles, et cetera, et cetera. I've I've found quite a bit of stuff in there, so I think it's very worthwhile to have.

How Renewals And Refunds Work

SPEAKER_04 25:45

So let's um let's kind of recap what what this is. It's uh it's a an offer to NROI certified officials to join NASO, the National Association of Sports Officials, for a $69 membership fee, which is uh roughly half of the existing membership fee. Prorated if you've already got a membership and want to renew at that rate, uh NASO will take care of that. We're gonna have a dedicated web page. We're gonna have a link on the USPSA webpage for certified officials to go to, very similar to how you go buying uh an NROI jersey. Um uh liability and other insurance, which is quite a bit of good coverage there, uh advice and and legal advice if you need it. And then just generally, you know, like we say, free advice on our on our blog page, uh found in the magazine and in the and in the newsletter. So I think it's overall a heck of a deal. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

I think it's important for us because it brings another sport, an important sport, and uh, I'll be perfectly honest, not one that I knew a lot about, but I'm trying to learn into the fold. Uh so you know the collective group together can learn from one another and can get better and can share a lot of the resources that we talked about and figure out what's going on in different sports and different industries that you can apply to your own particular sport. Um so that that that's what it's all about. It's trying to make officiating better, whether you're a judge, whether you're uh a football official, whether you're a sailing steward um or a measurer, as they call them. Um, you know, everybody is doing something related to officiating. And all we want to do is try to make officials get better, feel better, and stay protected. And that's what NASL spends its time doing. Um, so we're excited about this relationship. If members have questions, they can certainly, you know, work through you and get to me and we can answer those in case there's specific liability questions or anything with regards to that. Trust me when I tell you, we've done a lot of things behind the scenes to make sure that all the liability protection is there for you. You're dealing with a lot of guns and ammunition and other things, but it's all there. And we work with a company called American Specialty Insurance. And they are a great partner of ours and have been our insurer for well over 35 years, and they just do a great job. But we've dotted our I's and crossed our T's just because of the uniqueness of your sport to make sure that your officials had that full protection. That liability is probably a little bit more important for you than it might be for a tennis official.

SPEAKER_06 28:37

Hopefully, we don't know. Hopefully not.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

But I'll tell you what, the game call, um, we haven't had anybody really press that on on an official at a match, but we have had people that have been disqualified for a safety infraction or something at a match and uh and want to get a refund for their match fee, which obviously the match doesn't want to do because they got what they paid for. They got a match, they just ended up doing something unsafe and getting disqualified. Uh, turn around and and dispute a credit card charge on that to try to you know take the money back from the match. Um, in my opinion, that should get you a membership suspension at the very least, right? Because that's just not correct. Uh, but that's one of the things that that uh people have tried to do. So I'm surprised that that over the years nobody has tried to directly, you know, uh hit on a on a on an official for a call they made that might have cost them some points or cost them a match or disqualified them or whatever, you know, and and tried to take some kind of legal action about that. But um, yeah, I wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Um but yeah, we see it a lot in the industry. Uh it's it's probably where we get the greatest amount of claims, and a lot of it's frivolous, but you know, once you have to get an attorney involved, you know. Uh there's one claim right now we're dealing with, and it's been well over five years now, and it has to do with the loss of potential scholarship income. So I don't know. You know, these you know these glorified AAU circuits are pretty big. And so this was a this was one of the better events than Peach Dam or something. Uh it was on the East Coast. There was a lot of high-profile programs there, I won't doubt that. And they're all watching these games, and this individual son fouled out really early in the second half. And so the dad who's involved is a high-priced attorney, knows the system backward and forward, and he sued the officials for loss of potential scholarship income for his uh his son. And it's frivolous. The officials didn't do anything wrong, but he's now appealed the thing four times, and we're already in the fifth year, and it just won't go away because the official, the attorney knows the system backward and forward. Yeah, right. So he keeps he keeps defining these claims and counterclaims and appeals, and it just makes your head spin. Nobody got into officiating to have to deal with stuff like this. So that's why NSO is there to try to make these things go away. Um, it shouldn't have to happen, but it'd be naive for me to tell you that it doesn't because somebody always feels like they've been wrong. Oh, yeah. Well, we're familiar with that. Oh yeah. Yep. So it it's a great partnership. We're excited about it. We we probably will start to see some things in the magazine with regards to uh practical shooting. You'll see some things on our say yes to officiating page, um, and that sport will be uh featured now, which we're excited about, you know, one of 14 or 15 sports that we have now and say yes to officiating. So it's a partnership that can help both organizations, but I really hope that the officials will see a lot of value in it, give it a chance and see what they can get because it's it's good um to learn from everyone in the industry, even those outside of the sport.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Well, I'm just glad that uh practical shooting is now an option to select because you know when I applied for uh NASO, they always said, What's your sport was not on the list? It was like other, and then you know it, you know, I put in USPSA, spelled it out, and I'm like, well, so I didn't chuckle that that should be the easiest thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

And the amount of programming we have to do to add sports, so we added in now. So practical shooting will be in there when you renew. I promise you, it'll be a box for you to check. But then they're always like, Well, should we add any others? Because you know, whenever we do this, it takes time and it's difficult. And I was like, I can't come up with another sport that's not listed there. So you will absolutely see that as a sport for you to check.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

I was just looking at your say yes to a fish date and there was stunt. And I'm like, okay, that's like tierleaning and you got it. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah. So you know, and we we do do an annual national event every year. So we do an NASO summit and um it goes around the country. And that's a really unique event where we would get a lot of leaders from different organizations to come together and spend a couple of days just putting on an event to help better officiating. And it it's funny because that's when we ran into the stunt and the USA cheer people, and they they've been coming now for 11 years straight, and they just love the in the ability to interact with other sports. So we'll send you information about that for your members and so you have that. But you'll see that, and it travels around the country, and it's it's really designed to get the leaders of different sports in the rooms to celebrate officiating, but also learn from one another collectively over a course of a two and a half day event.

SPEAKER_07 33:51

Yeah, Jody and I just barely missed the one in Spokane that happened a few years ago. I think it was right after COVID or during COVID and right before.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Right before COVID. Yeah. We're going back to Spokane in 2028. Well, perfect. We'll be there.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Easy for me to go then.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, so we're going in 2028, and then next year is Minneapolis in 2027. We'll be in Grand Rapids here at the end of July in Michigan. Yeah, this year. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_07 34:27

Well, Minneapolis is a one plane ride for from Spokane, so and it's right downtown.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

And I mean, you can walk across the street to the Twins, and and it's in a great spot in Minneapolis. So and Spokane was was an incredible facility. And uh we didn't know a lot about the town. I've been in Washington a lot because of a partnership we have with that officials association there, but and the Spokane, and that is a really neat city.

SPEAKER_07 34:53

Yeah, you know, they've managed to attract some pretty high-profile events. We've had uh, you know, the U.S. figure skating championships in Spokane twice. Um at the N State tournament there a lot, you know, yeah, we're regional for the NCAA for both men's and women's basketball. Um, there's you know, and then there's you know, there's minor league baseball, there's major junior hockey. You know, it's Spokane is a sports town, and people don't necessarily think about that, but there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Oh, yeah, we'll be at the Davenport, and it's just a great facility for us to work with. So yeah, Davenport's awesome.

SPEAKER_07 35:32

So all right. Well, Ken, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Anything else? Yeah, otherwise appreciated. Uh uh, I'm gonna stick around and listen for a little bit, see what you guys focus on with regards to rules and different things within your support. But as I said, as questions come up, send them my way. Otherwise, continued success to each of the officials. Keep doing what you're doing. Um, without us, it's just reads us. And um thank you for what you do as an official, either volunteer, paid, um by choice or voluntold. Um what you're doing is important to the match, important to the competitors, important to the sports industry. Um and they can't they can't play without you.

unknown 36:15

All right.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

We appreciate you coming and giving us details. And uh yeah, feel free to stick around. Um, but we've got right at uh a little over probably 7,000 certified officials right now out of a membership of 45,500. So it we continue to grow that both numbers. Um so yeah, I think I think this is gonna be a good uh beneficial partnership for the for both of us.

SPEAKER_07 36:40

Yeah. Well, one of the big questions that we always get from officials working bigger matches is, you know, has always has for years, as long as I've been in the sport, and I've been in the sport 23 years, um, been working nationals for 20. Um, you know, well, what's the you know, is this are we insured? Are we you know, and you know, now you know that that was one of the early reasons I joined NASO is oh insurance. And so that's that's a big that's that's a big deal. And I I think we're you're gonna see a lot of our our members uh joining your organization. And uh so that'll be good for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah, absolutely. Um and and we couldn't be more excited about it. So thanks again to you and to Russ. Yeah, he he certainly was the first one that reached out, but um Troy, the ability to work together and and everything to make it happen. Um we'll do whatever we can to make sure that it's a beneficial relationship for both your members as well as uh promote you internally within NASO to our members as well, because it's important that they they know what we're doing and they know that what an organization that you have.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Awesome. Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_07 37:58

Yep. So yeah, and Kane, you're welcome to hang out and and listen. Um I will do that. Appreciate it. If we hit something and you're just totally confused, ask. We'll be careful what you say there. So all right. Um,

Form C Updates And Match Admin

SPEAKER_07 38:18

Troy, any other announcements we need to go through? Uh anything about the new form C and anything like that?

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Uh yeah, for the new form C is is still a work in progress. We've got a couple edits to make, but uh it should be out there. At this point, it's not um it's not gonna be as efficient in getting information captured, et cetera, as as I hoped it would be, because it took a little while to get that in the queue for IT. Um but for next year, when people start entering matches for next year, uh, because most of them have been entered for this year, um, then we'll we will have the ability to track a little bit more information and get some more information back out to the match officials for those matches. So look for it, look for that. Um I understand uh uh we have a guy that's when Ken mentioned and voluntold, uh I've been dealing with uh Floyd about a maps, and he was like, Well, I was voluntol to do this match now, and they've been having some issues with the form C, so hopefully they get on the new one. I don't know. We'll see how it works. But um anyway, uh it is coming and it's weird. I'm sending out uh manually uh a form link to the after action report to the match director and and range master for these matches, and also requesting that they send in certified ammunition. All of that'll be all of that'll be uh automated in the new form C, but uh right now it's a manual process, but it's getting done, and I'm getting forms back, I'm getting information back. So the process is working. It just needs to be a little bit more automated under the new Form C system. So that's coming. Um I've certified uh our sanction quite a few matches in the last couple of days. If you have stages, you need to get them sent in because the time's getting short for some of these, and you know, there's only a few of us that actually look at that, and and we've got matches to work and other things to do as well. So if you've been sitting on your stages, please get them sent in so we can take a look. And then my travel schedule is pretty heavy. I don't know about you and Jody's. Uh I know a little bit about it, but yeah, I'm gonna be busy. So uh please get them sent in and and do the best that you can with that. The national staff is closed still. Uh we haven't had too many people drop out of that. Uh, we will be sending out an application for local people to work the pre-match at uh at Race Gun, I mean factory gun in um in Utah. That's not quite ready yet, so that'll be coming. So other than that, that's about all I have. All righty.

SPEAKER_07 40:57

And then we had uh question today um regarding an ammo uh one of the certified ammo vendors that had changed their name. Turned out they were also listed, but I just thought, you know, it's worth discussing because you know, vendors do change their names. And you know, it's it's not something we I mean, they if I if I'm correct, they have to refile paperwork or at least officially let us know that they've changed names, right?

SPEAKER_04 41:23

Correct. Yeah, they need to they need to notify me. They don't have to go through the whole process again if nothing else has changed. Uh obviously the the name on their FFL is probably gonna change, but that's between them and the ATF, uh, as long as they have a valid FFL as a service as an ammunition manufacturer. Uh all they have to do is notify me of the name change and I put it up as a new uh vendor because the old one obviously still has ammo out there uh with that label on it. So the same thing for your um for guns, right? So for production list guns, we've had a couple that have changed names over the years. Yep. And so those are still listed as as both the original manufacturer and the new manufacturer name. So yeah, it's just a notification process. Um and the same thing for targets, as a matter of fact, um uh current law enforcement targets are going to be uh rebranded as action target targets. So they're working on getting that uh paperwork done. So but we will leave LE targets up as a as a vendor because people have them, right? Right. So uh yeah, it's just a matter of communication. DNI at USPSA.org will will get you where you need to go. Or or you can do NROI at USPSA.org and Terry will forward it to me. But uh either any way that you want to do it, I still need the information.

SPEAKER_07 42:51

All right, and move on.

When An RO Drops A Gun

SPEAKER_07 42:55

Um, so there's a video hit the internet sometime yesterday or today, um showing some events that occurred at a at a match out here in Jody and my neck of the woods. And um so uh basically what the video shows is that the range officer running a shooter drops a handgun um and then retrieves it themselves and puts it in their pocket. Um there's more to it. Jody, you were not the RM involved, but you were at the match. Why don't you take it from there?

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Well, I mean, the video pretty much shows it all if you've seen it. Um apparently it was his carry gun. Apparently it was unloaded. Um, I don't know why he didn't leave it in his car, but he was officiating. The shooter had just basically started the stage. Uh, someone was getting the camera ready to film their buddy and happened to catch it. Um, and you can see it fell out and he just looked down, whoops, picked it up, put it in his pocket, kept running the shooter. They didn't stop, they didn't do anything. Um you know, the RM didn't find out about it. He rolled up on the stage for something else, and uh, one of the competitors told him about it. Um, you know, he talked with the the RO at that point. The guy had put the firearm in his car. Um, he said it was unloaded.

SPEAKER_07 44:28

Um I take his word for it because yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Um so I don't know if I want to say more on it.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Right now.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

But as an RO, I highly recommend. So, you know, like when local matches, you know, you're officiating while you have your firearm in your holster, right? That's normal. But you know, if your the RO's gun falls out of the holster, it's a stop. Do all the things, have another RO pick it up, you know, make sure it's clear, whatever. Um it it's kind of like dropping your gun outside the course of fire since you are not the competitor. Um however, at major matches, if you are ROing, you're not shooting the match at the same time. I highly recommend leaving all firearms in your car range bag, not on your person. Or if you do have them on your person, make sure it's a really um secure holster on your belt kind of thing. Um I think lessons were learned. Um, I don't know if he how much social media he does, but he's probably pretty embarrassed right now.

SPEAKER_07 45:49

He's gonna be a star.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

He's gonna be a star. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:52

Whether he wants to be or not.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

So this ties into one of the questions we have further down that during the course of fighting RO's gun falls out of his holster. Now, let me let me make a little side comment. So most of the time, in a in a match with dedicated range officers on a stage, they should not have a gun on them at all, right?

unknown 46:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

Uh if you're just RO on a stage, there's no reason for you to wear a gun. If you're in a staff match and everybody's uh officiating everybody else, and then you have your gun on, okay, well that's acceptable. Uh why you would have one in a carry position or whatever, and you're not shooting, and I understand this particular individual's match was complete, so he was not shooting. Um, no reason to have that on you. In fact, in the in our uh overall global organization, IPSC, you cannot officiate even as a staff member in a staff match while you and wear a gun while you do it. They insist that you take it off, right? So that's a that's a a thing, no reason to have that gun. Um so but in this question is during the course of fire, the honor's gun falls out of his holster while he's following the competitor through the stage. Is this grounds for the competitor to have a reshoot? It should be because at that point somebody should yell stop, right? Um, and then his comment was perhaps only if the gun interferes with the shooter in some way. And it's like, well, but I mean hopefully you don't trip on it. You know, so it doesn't go off, you know, something like that. But yeah, that that should be always be a stop. And in fact, this RO should have said stop when that gun hit the ground and allowed somebody else to pick it up, which was another part of a question we had about this was is that a DQ for him? Well, his match was complete. Um you can be disqualified after your match is complete because that overall match is not done. Uh but he should not have picked it up. And the rules don't really allow you to pick up your own gun, period. The way that the the rule about dropping a gun is written, it's kind of a third-person thing. The RO picks it up, clears it, hands it back to the quote competitor. Well, you can put competitor, range official, whatever. Whoever's gun fell out does not pick it up, right? Right. So that's uh that's a thing. Um, I have a I have an incident report about this. I have not opened it up and read it yet. Uh I did see the video, however. So NROI will be investigating it. Um please quit sending me emails about did you see just what are you gonna do about it? We see it, we know about it, we're gonna do something about it.

SPEAKER_07 48:40

That goes across the board. We bought it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

Yeah. So anyway, I think that that beats that horse enough, but uh not a good thing, right? Especially when it's on video. And hey, guess what, people? Everything you do these days, somebody's gonna have a camera out or a cell phone or something. You're gonna be on video. Absolutely. All right, moving on.

Video Evidence Reality Check

SPEAKER_00 49:05

I do have to since we're talking about video. Um last year when we had our state match, it was just like you know, a month or so after they switched to allowing video evidence. Right? The use of video evidence for appeals. Right. Um and there was quite a few people filming everything, and a lot of people wanted me to watch videos. This year, hardly any.

SPEAKER_07 49:32

Yeah, the novelty's worn off.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

I I mean, I watched two videos. One was it was just due to a practice score artifact, it didn't end up being a real thing. Right. Um the guy won't arbitrate. I'm like, well, it's a scoring thing. Why don't we do some meetup and set first? Let's try that first. Um, the second one was a DQ that the video was inconclusive, but the RO after he ran the next shooter replayed in his brain and was like, oh yeah, actually it wasn't what I thought. So um, but there was not nearly as much. The novelty of video review has worn off and the sky is not falling.

SPEAKER_07 50:08

So Right.

unknown 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

I just want to mention that observation.

SPEAKER_07 50:13

I think that's that's a good observation, and thank you for that. All right. Next question.

Reshoots And Eye Protection Misuse

SPEAKER_07 50:19

I have a question about the application rule 543, which is the lost to displaced eye and hearing protection. I shot a local match at the Capcus Combat Match League uh recently. The conditions were quite windy and the Arizona dust was quite dusty. Imagine that, dust being dusty. Uh during the course of fire, the competitor ran through a cloud of dust and clearly got some dust in his eyes. The RO stopped the shooter in order to reshoot, citing uh Rule 543. Is this the correct application of this rule? And Troy, I think you took this one.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Yeah, that that is not the correct application of that rule. He didn't lose anything. He got dust in his eye. I mean, it could be uh an external influence, but that's not a stop and a reshoot. That's a request at the end of the stage for you know, something happened, I got dust in my eye, I couldn't see. Can I get a reshoot? Uh if that question is asked, they have to uh not hear their time or hear anything being scored. But 543 is not the rule to use there. He didn't lose anything, he just got dirt in his eye. And I mean, most people are gonna get sweat in their eyes, get dirt in their eyes, do something. Uh not always, uh, if it's your sweat, uh, it's not necessarily what I would consider an external influence. But if the wind blows, you know, considerable amount of debris around, uh, then yeah, it could be. I'm not saying it is, but it could be a reshoot. But it's not a stop and a reshoot automatically.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah, there's a reason when I still wear contacts. I own several pairs of dust sand goggles. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Uh-huh. Yeah. Get your goggles out. I mean, I don't have that problem here where I live because we shoot on grass and there's not much dust, you know, from the from the range itself. But uh it seems like out there you would understand that, you know, any place that has a lot of dust and wind, you'd have that issue. So you might want to do better with your eye protections. But it's not a 543 stop.

SPEAKER_07 52:21

You're more likely to have a crocodile problem than dust.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

Snakes, alligators, whatever.

SPEAKER_07 52:28

Yeah, gatherers. All right.

Preventing Reshoot Abuse On Stages

SPEAKER_07 52:31

Um, and the next uh person that wrote in actually ended up asking us four questions. So we're just gonna just roll through them because they're all pretty decent questions. In um NRY podcast number 99, it was stated that the shooting underneath a wall and engaging a pauper is a range equipment failure in an automatic reshoot. A crange equipment failure where the competitor can purposefully cause the REF through his own actions, seems like it'll get abused to get reshoots. Um yeah, but if you it looks like they're doing it on purpose, then sportsman like conduct starts to maybe rise up.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Right. There's another rule for that.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

And it and it should be. Yeah. It's like shooting through a barrel at a at a piece of steel or something to knock it down to get a reshoot. I mean, that's a deliberate thing. It could be a poor setup on the part of the the stage, but I mean, still, if you if you could do it. But shooting on a wall like that, obviously, and again, it's gonna be subjective, it's gonna be the RO's call, but you know, if you observe this competitor really tanking that stage, and then all of a sudden, oh hey, I shot under the wall and hit this popper, I get a reshoot, then you might have a it might raise a little suspicion in your mind that that was done deliberately. Like Jody said, there's a there's a rule that covers that.

SPEAKER_07 53:54

Yeah, and in any case, get the RM involved um immediately, if not sooner. Um, because that one could get a little contentious, and you might as well have the RM. It's a disqualification, so the range master is gonna have to be called anyway. Um well, especially for anything for 106-1. Yeah, anything 10.6, um 10.6, 10.7, any of that, the range master needs to be involved. A S A P. All right, moving on to their next question. Um, we already kind of dealt with this one, so this is the RO's gun falls out. We already did that one. So we'll move on to the next

Pocket Magazine Holders Rule Clarified

SPEAKER_07 54:35

one. During the course of fire after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the written stage briefing, spare ammunition magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Um, a competitor may also carry additional magazine speedloading devices in apparel pockets and retrieve and use them. Are retention devices attached to a competitor's pocket legal or not? It seems to be a greater because it's not attached to the belt as required in the first part of the rule. It is in the pocket, which appears to be allowed in the second part of the rule, but it seems as if the intent of the rule is to only allow magazines that are floating loose in a pocket, not attached to a retention device. Otherwise, the first part of the rule would say something like retention devices attached to the competitor's belt or clothing and specifically designed for that purpose.

unknown 55:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 55:24

Very long question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:26

Well, I requoted the entire rule, but you know, it's not something that we'd always look at.

SPEAKER_04 55:32

So he's answered his own question basically because that rule does say retention devices attached to the belt and doesn't specifically allow them anywhere else. Now, this was a topic in the recent rules committee um discussion. It's not, I don't think it's going to be a big deal if if they're allowed one way or the other. Um, I don't think it grants you any sort of advantage like that. Um, but uh I think the rules committee was probably in favor of allowing it. But again, that's it's not legal right now. I mean, that's been our position that it's not legal to have a retention device in your pocket.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

So so it would be basically uh instead of a pocket holster, it's a pocket magazine pouch.

SPEAKER_04 56:19

Right. Pocket magazine pouch or a pocket magnet or whatever. There's several people that are selling them. I mean, we can't and I'm sure it's the same in in other sports and industries, but we we can't hardly keep up with the stuff that people uh come up with, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Oh yeah. So just okay, let's say we allow these items uh for carry optics production single stack, will it still be only one per pocket?

SPEAKER_04 56:51

One per retention device, yeah. Okay. So if you had a if you had a pocket magnet, let's not call it a magnet, let's call it a pocket mag holder, and then another one in the pocket, you know, they are separated, so that would probably count as two. Right. But you know, it's it's just gonna be a it's gonna be a headache. And it's gonna depend on how we if we change that rule, how we write it. Right. So gonna have to be pretty careful with the language on that one. But at present, we're we've been saying that no, that pocket retention device is not allowed. Well, you can stick it in your pocket, that's fine. Um, one of the committee members the other night was said, you know, all of my pants I use to shoot have a pocket that's specifically designed to hold a magazine. Great, awesome. But it doesn't have a magazine clip in it, doesn't have a magnet in it, but it's just a a special pocket, just a skinny, skinny pocket. Yeah, I have one in some of the you know, different brand, different models of certain pants have certain pockets in certain places.

SPEAKER_07 58:00

A lot of the 511 uh pants have them. But yeah, you know, and these the the pocket holsters like this are are quite popular with the concealed carry crowd because that keeps your magazine in an orientation, it's not flopping around. Um, it's not maybe falling out as easily or not falling out at all. Um, so I mean they're they're popular for that crowd. So, but yeah, with the ability, the maker verse, quote unquote, out there where you can throw something into SolidWorks, design it, and you can send it off and have somebody make it for you, or 3D print it and make it yourself, or all these other things that's everybody can make stuff. It's it's fantastic. Um, but uh, because I do some of that myself, but it's uh yeah, there's no way that we can keep up with all the things that people are are producing and and putting on the market and claiming it's legal for USPSA sometimes, uh, whether they ask us or not.

SPEAKER_04 59:06

So speaking of of the maker crowd, um, I saw a very unique homemade setup this this weekend at um at the match I was at at the Mississippi Classics. So this guy that I I know him, he's he's very innovative, uh, came up with a chassis. Of course, you know, the board approved chassis-based handgun, the PCC conversion. So uh it was the top end of a of a Glock that he had modified somewhat. The trigger's in a different place, but the whole chassis is 3D printed, right? So it doesn't swap a barrel out or anything. It just it just puts a 3D printed shroud out past the muzzle of the handgun that's mounted in there. But it's not the complete handgun, it's it's a different loading system he came up with. I I it's hard to explain, but yeah anyway, the you're not holding on to the pistol grip of the handgun, you're holding on to the pistol grip of the chassis and the triggers there, and it's it's just different. But anyway, he got a little bit off in his in his mounting system. That was essentially shooting the front end of his chest as it went, you know. And he's like, I don't know what's happening here. He was missing a lot of stuff, right? He's he's he's a mastery GM shooter, right? Um, but yeah, so and then one of the other guys was like, well, heck half you half the front end of that thing is missing, right? So uh it needs a little work, but as far as being legal, I mean, if if they said chassis-based stuff is legal, I had nothing to say about it. Um, it was actually better than some of the commercial things I thought that just simply slap a handgun into a holder, you know. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. But again, it's hard to keep up.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:58

Yeah. Part of design and development is uh knocking the bugs out. Oh, yeah. Or shooting them off. I mean, whatever. So that's pretty, but you know, that's pretty that's pretty innovative.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:13

Okay, um, moving on, let's see.

New Gear Innovations And Chassis Builds

SPEAKER_07 1:01:16

Um yeah, referring to the rule 104-7, does when the competitor is not engaging targets only apply to the situation a shot which occurs while retrieving a staged firearm, or can this be applied to any shots that occur while not aimed at a target? To further clarify, 104-6 covers an unaimed shot during movement, but what about an unamed shot while standing, not during a reload, not during real action, and does not travel over the berm or land within 10 feet of the competitor? Is this still a DQ?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

Does it meet one of the rules, the DQ?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:52

Yeah, it's just yeah. It's if if it doesn't satisfy any of the DQ rules, then it's not a DQ.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Not a DQ.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

I have a question about that though. If if it just I mean, I don't know all the details for this because this wasn't super specific.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:10

I mean, it's obviously something that's happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:12

An unaimed shot while standing. So you're just standing there and all of a sudden, blam, the gun goes off.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:18

Well, I mean it's dig 320, I guess.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:22

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:25

You had to go there.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:27

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:30

I mean, that's to me that it's gonna be subjective, right? You get you gotta you gotta know that that they didn't intend to fire that shot.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

Uh if it doesn't feel like that's usually when I I look to see how high the competitor jumps.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:44

Right, right. How surprised is the competitor.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

Yeah. If it doesn't fit the specific AD rules, there could be a finger rule about it or something else, right? I mean, it's just but it it could not be, right? Right. It's just but I I don't I mean, I don't get it. It it's gotta be most of that stuff is where it happens. I couldn't see you just standing still and and then all of a sudden, you know, you you pull the trigger, not aiming at a target or nothing else, and your gun just goes off. Most people would probably disqualify you for that.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:15

I mean, you you see it in steel challenge sometimes with people that are starting low rating with a handgun, especially if they're new, uh they're a newer shooter, and they they get their finger where it shouldn't be and end up putting a nice hole in the aiming point or near it. Um, you know, that's after the start signal, right? Well before maybe before. Um so I mean those are all different cases, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:40

But yeah, I mean, you know, if people just standing there, I think if it's outside the course of fire, um well, if if it's if it's not if it's before the start signal, that's problematic. Yeah, that one. Yes, I don't know what you would claim you were trying to do, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Um I was tested my trigger.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:00

I wasn't sure that ran. I wasn't sure it was loaded. I am now.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

I was testing my safety. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:06

That guy said this was a three-pound trigger, and it feels like a four-pound trigger. Um or a one-pound trigger. But yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know. It's that's a that's kind of a tough one. It's always gonna be a subjective call, and you know, I wouldn't try it. I don't think I'd try it and see what happens.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:25

You never know. All right.

Unaimed Shots And DQ Thresholds

SPEAKER_07 1:04:28

Okay, next one. I was wondering how to go about scheduling an NRI class in my state. I'm located in Massachusetts and would like to get my club to be USBSA affiliated, but we need everyone to be trained as NRO. Well, for step one, your club has to be affiliated um in order to schedule a seminar.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:44

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:45

Um, and after you've been affiliated for a year, you are eligible for um a free seminar. Um you have to hold so many clubs, yeah, you have to stay affiliated, you have to meet some criteria, but you're eligible for a free seminar, um, which isn't totally free. You get you get the instructor part for free. Right. Um, and or if you want to be go faster, then once you're affiliated, you can start you can schedule a class. Um, that's all done online. Um and as far as I know, affiliating a club is there's like a form you have to get some signatures. Yeah, a bunch, you know, was it 10 Troy?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

I mean 10, 10 sort of 10 uh members to sell in it. And then there's uh a couple of other statements you be selling off on, and then there's a I think it's a $75 fee, but it's it's an instant thing. You call the office and get it done. This doesn't take any time once you get all that together. I was curious about um why everybody had to be trained as a range officer, but I'm I'm gathering that's a a rule where he's the venue. Where he's trying to range. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:03

So I I told him, I said, you know, we uh might be able to get around that because we do the occasional NROI uh organize a sponsored RO seminar. So maybe that would be a way to get some of his members to, you know, but they have to be members and they they have to be classified, so they have to be shooting somewhere. Um and then I I didn't hear back, so we'll see what what they're gonna do. But kudos to him for wanting to do it, right? Yep. I mean, they're always great.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:37

And now with Russell back there, um it's be pretty easy to get something arranged once they're affiliated or otherwise.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:45

I don't know if they allow Russell in Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:50

They might stop him at the state law and to sneak across. Um let's see. All

How To Schedule An NROI Class

SPEAKER_07 1:07:01

right. The May question of the month, um, no shortcuts. Would this would this also not occur a incur a significant advantage penalty on their 10 to 2? So Jody.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

So refresher, the May question of the month uh dealt with 1155, the rule that says uh you can specify in your WSB that competitors must stay within the fault lines, can't cut outside the fault lines, and it's a per shot penalty after they've taken a shortcut. Um so we we're already penalizing for their action using 1155, which is a per shot penalty. Um we don't use 10 to 2 the or 10 to 2 is the uh failing to follow the stage procedure rule. We don't use that as all as well because we've already penalized them. And the significant penalty would be a per shot, so we're not gonna penalize them for twice the shots. No, um, they're already in a hefty penalty for their actions, so and we don't penalize for the same action twice, except for extra shots and extra hits.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:12

So um two separate actions. Yeah, the two separate actions you can have an extra shot and have an extra hit. Right. Yeah, this was this would be my this freaking stop it question of the episode. Because that we get that a lot, you know. Uh I want to penalize for this and this because you know I I don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

Because the score of zero is not enough.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

It's not enough.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:42

Zero is zero.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

Well what maybe we need to bring back negative stage scores.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

Negative. That would be a nightmare. Yeah, we don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:55

I especially, you know, somebody once suggested that, you know, you should just have this, your classification really should just be, you know, this hopefully positive points total divided by the number of matches, stages, whatever you've shot over the course of the year. And it's like, oh god, there have been years when I end the year with a negative points total. Um, so no. So all right, and let's see, our next

Activated Targets And FTSA Traps

SPEAKER_07 1:09:28

one. We had a series of unfortunate events evolving a stage at today's club bench. At setup, we found a stomp pad was defective, so we swapped it out with a highly scientific rope, which the competitor had to pull in order to tug a hinge stick out from underneath the bobber weight. As designed, the bobber had plenty of visibility at rest, but there was about an inch of the head box available, nowhere near 100% of the upper A zone. And the match director RM did not include in the written stage briefing the target must be activated before engagement. So this is a level one match. So you There's the level one exception for that. If you state it, yes. If you state it. Most competitors on my squad went for the headshot, but there were still bullet holes on the lower part of the target, so not everyone did. At teardown, some came up with the idea that if you fail to activate the target at all, you incur a failure to shoot at penalty. My contention was that this is not the correct reading of 991 and 993. The target was not a disappearing target, but the refreshed RO making the complaint contended that for a target to be legally visible before activation, it must have a minimum percentage of the A zone. His contention is that everyone who took the visible partial, partially visible headshot without activating the target incurred FTSA. I'm not able to find what's that? It should be two misses as well. But anyway, proceed. I'm not able to find a way with the English language that makes any of that true. But I was also at a food and caffeine deficit. Is he misunderstanding 911 or am I?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Should I read 9191?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

Ah, non-disappearing invisible targets. Activated scoring targets, which present a legal portion of the A zone, C appendix B1, either prior to activation or when they stop, gravity operated, or when they continuously appear and disappear, motorized, will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties, exception for fixed time, which doesn't apply here. If the target is legally visible before being activated, it may not, it may be shot before being activated, and activation is not required, which means 993 does not apply. Okay. 993 is activated appearing scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor does not activate the target movement either before or with the last shot fired in a course of fire. This includes no shooting targets that must be activated. This does not apply to legally presented targets that are available to be shot prior to activation, C99, C991, or activated appearing targets on fixed time stages. Penalties based on the number of shots required for the activated scoring target or the scoring targets behind the no shoot. Yep. So basically the new RO, the fresh RO, was correct. They should have except they should have got FTSA penalties. Right. For not activating the target because the entire upper A zone was not available.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

Correct. Yeah, a little bit of it doesn't count.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:38

You gotta have the entire upper A zone or 25% of the lower. But I mean we we see that a lot with the max traps, right? Yeah. With the head still showing because that target was originally designed to be hidden behind something like a door or a port so that it was not available until you opened that and activated it, and then it became available, and then it was if you still had the upper azone out, then it was not disappeared. A lot of people just use them free standing on a stage and they don't want to make it a disappearing target, so they leave the headbox available. In that case, you don't have to activate it, you can just shoot it, right? But in this case, you did have to activate it. And like Judy correctly pointed out, and the Fresh Prince of R.O.'s correctly pointed out that it is an FTSA, but it is also two mics, regardless of if it's got bullet holes in it or not. So it's there's two rules that cross-reference each other right there. I mean, that's pretty pretty plain in the English language, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:43

Well, what they should have done was made sure prior to activation not nothing was available.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:49

And then everyone would have had to pull the rope.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:52

Because that target did disappear, and I would be willing to bet they didn't score it as a disappearing target. Nope. No, no. So yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:01

Oops. Yeah. Kinda.

unknown 1:14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:06

Close, but no.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:07

Yeah, and at a major, this is this stage gets tossed.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:12

Right. Absolutely. Ask me how I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Um, I mean, so I guess I'll just put this plug in. So if there's going to be a US uh RO class at your local seminar, and it's been a while since you got your certification, inquire about if there'll be extra room in the class and go audit the class.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

Um, I mean, these rules we've tweaked some in the last few years. Um we thought to make them more clear, but maybe not. Um, but it's always good to, you know, go see see the current seminar and catch up on new things and see what's changed because things have changed.

unknown 1:14:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Things have changed became since I became an RO in what, 2011? Um so I know, I know. And the baby, yeah, whatever. Um, so it's a good idea to uh if you have the opportunity and the time, come spend a day in the seminar and also see how we've changed it to make it more fun.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:18

Well, we've we've you know, yeah, we've done put a lot of extra new exercises in. We've got a ton of video um in there now um to help explain concepts and give you a chance to exercise your rule calling your your calling your rule calling chops. Um it's it's very, very, very different from when I did it because mine was on overhead transparencies. But uh most kids don't know what an overhead project is. They don't know what an overhead projector is, let alone what transparency is.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:50

So about a carousel. Yeah. Yeah. So that was fun.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:00

Yep. So all right. Well, that's the end of the questions. And all right, Jody had something else. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

So um at the match this weekend, we had like a 300 and some shooter, 330 something shooter match this weekend, Washington State Championship. Um the other RM mentioned to me about how his ROs had come and how the shooters were kind of rude. And I was like, what do you mean? And so he said, Well, they said, you know, usually when the RO CRO reads the WSB, you know, I'm the CRO and my ROs are so and so and so and so, and then everyone claps and cheers, right? Yeah, and then at the end of the stage, you go around and you thank the ROs for working. Um, you know, and they weren't doing that. I'm like, huh. And then some of the comparisons were just a little testy, but it was Chronograph that gave me this report. So it just may have been that chronograph wasn't going their way. Uh so I went and took a poll of my zone of the ROs and asked them. And they said, no, pretty much everyone's been good, except there was one squad where they didn't cheer, they didn't thank us. Um, and they said it looked like it was all news shooters. So I'm gonna dig, I have a match etiquette. I don't know if it's a blog post or an article. I gotta find it. I'm gonna send it to Jake for the magazine and probably update it. But I guess this is my uh this is your drink and stop it? No, it's more of a reminder, I guess, to all our people who listen to our podcast and our certified officials out there that there's a lot of unspoke unwritten etiquette in our sport. Right. Like don't poach the stage for the Ondex shooter. Right. There was a guy during the staff match who was doing that a little bit, and he didn't do it bad enough that he got in my way.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:04

But I, you know, so I didn't say he wasn't, it wasn't a chronic

Match Etiquette And Thanking ROs

SPEAKER_00 1:18:08

one, so I didn't say anything to him, but I was kind of close and debating it. Um, and he was new to the sport, it was his first major. Um so I guess as you know, part of the job of ROs is we're kind of ambassadors. So you might have to at your local club or section match uh inform some of our new, our new members, because we have a lot of them. Hey, it's customary to thank our volunteer ROs for giving up their weekend and getting, you know, 20 to 30,000 steps a day uh working the stage for us so we can have our match um and things like that. So it's you know, I think as we were talking within the N ASO uh guy, um you know, we're probably one of the few sports that are don't have paid officials. And um showing some appreciation is yes, as an RO, I get tired of shaking all those hands at the end of the stage, but I do appreciate it, you know, maybe not shaking hands, but a fist bump, a verbal thank you. That's good. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:22

Yeah, I kind of took the kind of took the glow off of all that shaking hand stuff, but um still certainly, you know, do fist bumps or you know, I'll if you want to shake my hand, I'll shake your hand. I I don't really care that much, but um you know, so but yeah, it's it's hard to keep that's that's getting you know, that type of thing keeps getting worse, it's gonna be harder to retain ROs because it's like I'm out here, you know, beating it up and down in the dirt and busting my hump so you all can have fun, and you won't, you know, I'm getting nothing for it. So, you know, to hell with it, I'm just gonna be a competitor, and then pretty quick we don't have matches.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's you know, it's I don't think it's something that we tell people they have to do, but it's certainly nice to you know remind them that it is a good thing to do, that we do have volunteers, etc. You're not gonna make you know not everybody's gonna clap for you, not everybody's gonna want to shake their hand.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:28

But my grandmother would have abused my butt with a wooden spoon if I didn't say thank you and shake somebody's hand. Oh, wow, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:39

So that's what I was gonna, I didn't mention it when uh Ken was talking, but you know, I was I was raised to that, you know, you didn't really bitch about the those referees cost us the game kind of thing. Right because they're all human beings, or most of them are amateurs, you know, they make the calls they see, etc. These days, I mean, everything's you know, digitally checked. Baseball, they got a strike zone thing, you know. Uh college ball, I mean, what did what did the thing the guy said the other day? What's the best thing to happen to college baseball? The pitch clock. Oh, I need a make ready clock. Yeah, we need a make ready clock. You got 30 seconds, you know. Yeah, uh, but that is the thing, you know. People will will like he was mentioning, and I've heard of it. I've heard of people going after RO's, you know, so I'm gonna sue that son of a bitch because he called my boy out and he wasn't out, you know. So I was like, really? Really? You're teaching your kid this?

SPEAKER_07 1:21:46

Yeah, yeah. Get your your participation trophies, will be available at the end of the match.

NASO Link Soon And Closing

SPEAKER_07 1:21:54

So that's all we got for you this time, folks. Thanks for joining us. And again, look for more information coming soon about uh renewing or getting your first NASO membership. Um, that's all in the process and probably will be live before the next podcast. I hope we're really, really close. Um, so you know, keep your eyes and open for that. And it really is it really is worth the worth the cost, especially now that it's basically half price. Um so it do that. And if you have questions, comments, whatever, send them off to us at rules at uspsa.org, and your question probably will appear on the podcast. So, you know, we don't assign uh credit or blame. We ever that's all done anonymously, but uh you know you'll know, right? All right. With that, thanks everybody. Have a good night.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:51

Good night.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:52

Good night. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find nroy seminars under the NROI tab at USBSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRY tab at USPSA.org.