Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:11

This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Oxford Institute, United States Fractions Scooting Association, and Steel Town Scooting Association.org slash tools, SDSA.org slash tools, and the USBSDA and SDSA apps available near Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Doctor Students Institute. Role discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules could be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 99, recorded early May 2026. Well, hello everyone. Kevin Emmel here with the NRY podcast. And joining me as usual are my cohorts, uh Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Good evening.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

And Jody Human. Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Good evening.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

All right. Well, here we're back for another podcast, number 99. The next one, the next one is podcast 100. We'll have to think of something special to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

I've got a bunch of old used foam earplugs. Maybe we can give those away.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

The first 100 collars get free overlays.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah. 500 once fired primers. Yeah. Already shot bullets. We'll come up with something. Hell, already shot bullets. I mean, the price of lead these days. Um, yeah, we'll come up with something. Um even if it's wrong. So, all right. Anyone got any announcements or anything?

NASO Partnership And RO Benefits

SPEAKER_04 2:04

All right. So USPSA or NROI has has partnered with the National Association of Sports Officials in ASO. And that's going to give any certified range official within USPSA a discount membership within ASO. Yes. They provide insurance and a lot of other things. Uh, you get a magazine that has some hints and tips about refereeing and umpiring and all kinds of other things, which on the face of it, you may think, well, I'm not a referee or an umpire. Um, I'm in a sport that's basically a self-officiated sport, which NASO really doesn't have a lot of, right? Right. But if you pay attention to what they write in the in the articles, and I know reading is hard for a lot of people, but um check out what they have to say and see if you can't correlate that to acting as an official on the range, because there is a ton of good information in that for people that have a lot of experience at all different levels, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

And in fact, I got permission to reprint an article uh from the latest magazine. So we're gonna publish that probably in USPSA magazine, probably as a blog post. That's a really good article about just the uh commitment, the personal feelings, the emotional stuff that you go through being a range officer, being an official in any sport, right? Yeah. So I think there's some beneficial uh information in that. As soon as they get the link set up on their side, it'll be uh protected behind the member login uh USPSA, and you'll be able to click on that just like you click for jerseys. So if you're certified already, there'll be a little passcode that puts you in there, and you can log into you uh to NASO. They are gonna prorate it uh for the year. So uh past June, it should be half price, and then the next year it always renews in January. So uh next year it would be$69, but they gave us that discount. Yeah, very happy to have uh a pretty large group of officials uh potentially joining their organization. I spent some time with their with their head training guy, and uh he's he's pretty excited about it. So uh anyway, that's the the big announcement I have for this.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, the going on to the magazine for that. There's a lot of articles about recruiting and retaining officials. And it's a lot of the same things that we deal with. Dealing with parents, yeah, dealing with spectators, dealing with this. But you know, it's it's uh it's interesting to read. You'd think that those sports have an easier time retaining officials because they're paid, but they have the same problems we do, right? They're there are their referees are aging out, they're having a hard time recruiting younger folks and keeping them. Um so it is interesting. I mean, yeah, they're like deep dives into soccer rules or basketball rules. Um I don't really care for, you know, occasionally the football stuff is interesting if you're a football fan. Um but it is very interesting to see that we have some of the same problems they are having.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Right.

unknown 5:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

And some really cool ads for some really cool whistles.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I never in my life knew that they have electronic ones, no, they're not good whistles. Yeah, we need whistles. Right, we need whistles.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

I handed out topps knives at some staff dinner, and they all had a damn whistle in the box. It was the worst mistake I ever made. Uh-huh. So no, you cannot have a whistle. Damn it. Yeah, no, that's a whistle and a stopwatch. That's what you need. Hell, that's what we started with.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, right. You think about people arguing about the accurate time now. Well, wait till we go to stopwatches. Stopwatches and whistles.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Yeah, but it's yeah. Yeah, I yeah, when I first became an RO, there was a uh certificate in all the stuff that USPSA mailed me with my RO certificate. And and that included uh a uh entry form or a registration form for NASO at a reduced rate. So we've kind of been part of them in the long distant past. And that kind of went away. I know Jay's been a member for many years. I've been a member for several years, as is Jodie. I think so Vroy. So it's uh, you know, for for the what you pay, yeah. I think it's a hundred thousand dollars in liability and some medical and right, um, you know, and I think there's even some legal representation in there. If uh it's a it's a really good deal. Um so don't run right out and join right now. Um wait until we get to the discount.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Right. We'll publish a short list of the benefits, just the highlights on the webpage. And then um, once you get into their site, then that there'll be a lot more complete information there. But um so far, I mean, I've I haven't had to use any of the benefits from it, you know, which is a good thing.

unknown 7:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

But uh I've enjoyed the articles, I've enjoyed the support that they give, you know, referees and umpires. Because I mean, bottom line is if you don't have rules, you don't have a competition, right? Yep. All you have is recess, basically. So uh if you in order to have rules, you have to have somebody that uh actively enforces those rules. This is what we do as much as any other referee or umpire or anything else. The distinguishing factor is that we self-officiate, right? We don't have a separate group of uh pure officials, right? Um, and so that holds us to a higher standard as far as behavior on the on the range and uh equity equitability of calls and you know, fairness of calls, etc. So um I think it's a good thing that some of the information they put there points to things like that. They also cover some training, there's some online training and I think interpersonal relationships, uh how to avoid harassment, uh, you know, claims, stuff like that. So they do some training online and on their site as well. That's good for any official.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's my announcement.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Uh, did you want to talk about the after action report for match directors and our ends?

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Oh, yeah. Let's do that. So there's a new after action report. Uh it's a form for for match directors and range masters right now. Um, it's currently being added to the form C system so that so that it gets distributed when the Forum C is turned in. Uh, but right now what I'm doing is manually sending that to Mass Directors and Rangemasters for Form C listed uh matches. And so far we've gotten back, I don't know, 15 or 16 of them just from you know the MD or RM from any of these matches, but there will be some in the future for uh staff feedback, some for competitor feedback, and some for uh specific niches in the in the match, such as the chronograph people, because I want to know more about certified ammunition. I want to get those forms for uh filled out and turned in, right? And then also for stats people that that tells us if there were any anomalies in the paperless scoring system or anything like that. So it's all data collection. It's not intended to point fingers at anybody or or you know, you don't even have to put your name on it. Um, but there is a space for for praising your range officers if you're a master director or RM, if they did a good job. And there's also a space for saying this particular person did not do a good job, kind of thing. So, you know, that counts too, right? We we need to know who's doing well and who's not doing so well, and and tailor our training and and outreach to people that that need it. So that's what that's all about. Um, more information we gather, the better off we are. And so far it's been it's been very well received. So people enjoy the opportunity to give us feedback. If you're a Range Master and you and you work a match and you're in the RM Google group, uh, which I think everybody is, then you can also publish your you know paragraph style after action report to that group as well, and that's been useful too. A lot of people have done that as well. So I spent uh an enjoyable Saturday evening with Dave Bold up in Harvard, Massachusetts. Uh he was recently the RM at the match that SIG held up there, and so we had an opportunity to catch up. Uh Dave's been RM at a lot of matches in the Northeast, and we talked about issues like this and the reporting system and everything, and he turned out a very nice report. So I think the system's starting to work, and we'll get continue to push that out there to get more feedback.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah, I think it's it's great because we've kind of been operating in the blind. You know, we put everything out there, run, be free, and then well, nobody screamed, so I guess it went okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Right. I think there's a flu of emails about the match on Monday, so that's been okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Yeah.

unknown 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

Well, I mean, you know, that was kind of our indicator, right? And it's only when people feel strongly enough, it's usually from uh staff, it's usually from a competitor, but that's where there'll be a competitor for them. So uh kind of let us know what happened, what what you thought, problem areas, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So it's it's all you know, it's a standard QA program, so that's it's all good.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Right.

Walkthrough Sighting Aids Allowed

SPEAKER_01 11:51

All right. Anything else before we dive into the mailbag? All right, hearing nothing. Uh first question from the role from the mailbag. Um, I have a rules question regarding site pictures per 874. Are competitors allowed to use firearm magazines or any device that they would like to use as a site picture aid during a stage walkthrough, as long as it doesn't look like a firearm. And for USPSA, pretty much. Ipsic, no.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Right. Ipsic has an empty hands rule. Uh USPSA does not so a magazine, uh towel, uh, you know, water bottle, your finger and thumb, whatever you're doing is fine. As long as it's not a replica of a firearm, doesn't look like a firearm. Even a tape gun is okay as long as you don't put a set of sights on it. And I do get the occasional uh hopefully joke picture of somebody that's strapped an old red dot sight to their tape gun.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Um you gotta aim high with those things.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

Yeah. So yeah, you do. Um, but yeah, so yeah, you can use your your magazines or or anything, a towel. I mean, I don't know. You remember years ago that kid got kicked out of school because he chewed a pop tart in a shape.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Uh you know, bring your Pop Tart. I don't know. If you don't have a set of sights on it, I mean I I might think it's a Pop Tart. So your ham sandwich, your power bar, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Well, I mean, first off, remember your hands are covered with lead residue when you're handling your food.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So yeah, and you know, people wonder, everyone's following classes, people ask me, why do you even have this rule? And I said, Well, remember way back when when airsoft's first became popular, people would show up at matches with an airsoft and start walking the stage and scare the crap out of the staff. And uh so we had to have a rule. Um, well, didn't they do that before? No, because it was real guns and nobody had an airsoft. And uh yeah, I because I mean I was a I was an RO by the time that rule came about. I remember when that happened. Um, and it started causing trouble. Not that I haven't seen people accidentally pull out their gun during the walkthrough. Um, yeah, that'll raise blood pressure. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Um, I know a guy that did that. He was pretty high up in the organization.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

It wasn't me.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I had two people do that on the morning before they even fired their first shot.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Right?

unknown 14:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, and there's been some innovative things that people have tried to do to let you have a sighting aid of some kind, right? So I know Benny Hill developed the the walkthrough stick, he called it, which is a machine piece of aluminum with a set of sights on it that slips into your uh magazine, right? And so you're holding the magazine like a grip, and you got a barrel with a set of, you know, it had a dollar, uh, a fiber optic on the front and an open side on the back. And it's like that was pretty quickly told no. Yeah. Um, but not before he sold a whole bunch of them. Exactly. He yeah, he he sold a lot of them. Yeah, good old penny. It's just like anything else. I mean, that the guns continue to evolve, the stuff that you can use continues to evolve. Mm-hmm.

El Presidente And Scoring Views

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yep, it's it's always an arms race. All righty. Next one. I just read the blog post about no more than eight scoring hits from a single view. How does a classifier like El Presidente fit in with this role? If I understood it correctly, El Presidente had 12 scoring hits from the same view.

unknown 15:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Jody, I think that was yours.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yes. I have one more installment on that location of you series. But um you you notice we have stage types, and the location of view only applies to short, medium, and long courses. Uh standard exercises, speed shoots, and classifiers, it doesn't apply. And classifiers are supposed to be a legal stage before they become a classifier, but we have some classifiers like El President Day, which have been around for the while for a while and our rules have changed. And so that's why they're a classifier. And they can violate that rule because it doesn't apply to them.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

I think there would be a revolt if they decided to retire El Pres.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, that's kind of just un-American.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Yeah. Well, it's it's back within the rules now as a speed sheet.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Right, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Well, that's that's why we had to create the speed sheet rule. So two-thirds of our classifiers didn't suddenly become illegal.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

But there are there is one of the uh relatively like within the last six years classifier that did violate the speech sheet rule, but still got a class became a classifier. So we were sleeping at Nashville's apparently. But it's a classifiers, that's okay now.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Um but yeah, so you know the those this blog post areas is four short, medium, long courses.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Different animals than the other stage types we have. All right. Yeah. Okay. Next.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

This one's a little bit long, so we had a competitor lose control of his pistol, pistol fall out of his holster while walking the course of fire. He was aware, unaware that his pistol had fallen out of his holster and he and he had walked well beyond three feet of it. It was brought to his attention by an RO, which who retrieved the firearm, confirmed it was clear, and holstered the firearm. My question is: was the right call made? He was DQ'd per 10.5. I asked several ROs and CROs the following week about the call. I stated the definition of coursifier per the glossary, then stated that the coursifier is when a competitor is under the supervision of a range official, as in competitor ready condition or start position. I do disagree with them since the definition in the glossary does not state that the coursifier is only when supervision under the supervision of a range official. Trey, I think didn't you sort that one out? I know it wasn't me.

SPEAKER_04 18:10

Yeah, I think this was the one that the competitor uh the guy questioned and wrote it in the third person and then admitted that he had been the one that was disqualified.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

So I think before we answer this question, we need to go back to everyone in our who's taken an RO class. When does the course of fire begin? Right. Begins with make ready.

unknown 18:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

When does the course of fire end? Range is clear. With range is clear. So I'm just saying that.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

So evidently none of these understood that lesson. But um, I told him, I said, this is not a DQ, I don't care how far away you walk from it if you didn't know it fell out, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

I mean, this was during the walkthrough period.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Yeah. Yeah. So no make ready, no nothing. And you know, I at first I was kind of thinking, how did it fall out? And you didn't notice that, but anyway. Um but more than three feet of it doesn't apply. The RO retrieved it in front of the clear, holstered it for him, and then turned around and decued him, which is comes to the point of is this one of the ones? Is this one where you just freaking stop it? Yes, yes, yeah. So just freaking stop it, right? There's no reason to deq somebody for that if he didn't pick it up. So I can't, I don't know who you asked, but if they said that it's DQ, they were all wrong. They need to go back. Um and competitive ready condition or start positioning doesn't mean nothing.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

So um that's all after make ready. Yeah, and the three feet is a false flag because that's only during the course of fire. And if you set it down.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

So course of fire starts and make ready. If it falls out, and the example I use in class is if I walk up to the start position, and as I step into whatever position I have to be in and my gun falls out, and you haven't said make ready, I'm good to go, right? As long as I don't pick it up. The clear bright line is that make ready command. And then if if you say make ready and my gun falls out, I'm disqualified. Even though same gun, same condition, same everything. That clear bright line is what defines a DQ for a drop gun versus a DQ for a drop gun that was outside of the corps of time. Absolutely. So I mean, this has got to be a club culture. I'm a rules guru and I know everything. Just freaking stop a kind of example. I mean, this is this is this is when we get questions like this, this is really aggravating.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And you know, it's not unusual for people to drop a gun, you know, study doing stat up or whatever, and have to go find somebody to pick it up and you know, to come supervise them so it can be picked up properly. And that's not unusual. I mean, Amadon had a great story from the Missoula L10 Open L10 Nationals. He was riding between the two sections of the range and he sees this hat laying in the middle of the road, and he thought, oh, somebody lost their hat. He stopped and he picked the hat up, and there was a gun underneath it. And he's like, What the hell about that time? This guy comes trucking down the road going, hey, hey, hey, hey. And he had put his hat on it so people wouldn't drive over his gun. And it's like, you don't understand Montana drivers. And they swerved it. Um, but yeah, he dropped his gun walking down the road and he'd gone off in search, done exactly the right thing. He'd gone off in search of someone to pick it up for him. So John took care of him, and John was range one of the range masters at that match. And John took care of him and away they went. So yeah, that's probably the most extreme case I know of of. Somebody dropping a gun and having to leave it, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I mean, at least they were honest. I mean, if there was no one around, they picked it up, no one would have known. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

Or he could have kicked it off to the side of the road, although he probably didn't want to kick his gun around.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Well, those scratches it up. That's not good either.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, those guys.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, I mean, I would think a lot of people would just kind of do the look around hiding behind them trees.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

No, sure as hell, as soon as he picked it up, somebody would have seen it.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Uh more of the story is if you're gonna do a long walk, you might want to stop at the safety area, put your gun in a gun rug.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah. Or if you're or lock your walk or a struct, you know, whatever, right? Apply it.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Yeah.

Shooting Under Walls Paper Vs Steel

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Um, but yeah, put it in the gun rug, put it in your bag, whatever. Okay. Let's see. That was that was that one. Okay. All right. I listened to the second April podcast yesterday. There was a question about shooting under a wall at a paper target. The answer was two mics and an FTSA. Um, the answer to my email previously to shooting a popper under a wall was a reshoot. Is the shooting under a wall at a popper considered an equipment failure and therefore a reshoot? And is there no equipment failure with paper targets?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yes and no. Well.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

So basically when you shoot under a wall, so walls extend from the ground to affinity, right? So it's a solid plane. Five foot nine or higher. Yeah. So you're basically shooting through hardcover. But when you shoot a popper and knock it over, then that popper is not available for to re-engage anywhere else on the course of fire. So that's why we consider that an REF. Whereas a cardboard target, you could shoot it under the wall, and then you could go and shoot it from another location. And usually we can tell by the angle of the holes or whatnot, um, which holes were from your shooting it through not hardcover. But the target is still available to degree engage. So that's why it's not an equipment failure for cardboard targets.

Procedurals And No Shooting It Back

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Exactly so. All right. Next, let's see. We shot a stage that called for best three shots per paper and provided it in the written stage briefing for strong hand only for the last six shots required per roll 1153. The written stage briefing also noted that there was one procedural per shot, if not shot strong hand per roll 10.2.8. The shooter shot the second to the last target freestyle, but then realized his mistake and reshot the target three times strong hand, then finished strong hand on the last target. The RO did not penalize the shooter given he had made up the three starring hand shots. One of the other shooters suggested that the penalty should still apply as the three makeup shots were not required, as that the target already had three hits. The RO did not agree, as it would mean there was no way to correct the error. And in fact, would result in a double penalty to the shooter procedurals plus the time to make up the makeup do the makeup shots, which doesn't seem right. What's the correct interpretation and why?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Groans.

unknown 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yes. No.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Can't shoot your way out of a penalty. So the I mean, when did this trend of of people rationalizing what they think a rule should say versus what the rule actually says start? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I think it's when they don't open up the rule book to actually see what the rule says.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

But I mean, there's no way to correct the error. No, there isn't. That's why it's a penalty.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

There's lots of errors you can't correct.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Yeah. All kind of all kind of penalty, you know, errors you could screw up on. You can't shoot your way out of it. You can't fault the line and shoot a bunch of shots and then step back in and reshoot them. It's still gonna count.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

I mean, the guy doing is that in time. The guy should have just eaten the three penalties and shot the last target strong hand only.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I mean, then he wouldn't have as much of a time penalty. The time penalty was self-induced.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Um, but yeah, you can't shoot your way out of an error or a procedural.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

So double penalty procedurals plus the time that we never penalize by time. If you take extra time, that's on you. We're not happy with that. If you decide to do it, that's you. So that's yeah, the correct interpretation is he gets three penalties for shooting with the strong hand, regardless of what he picked it up. I mean, with the wrong hand, regardless of what he picked up later and and did. And just quit trying to, you know, interpret the damn rule book.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah. Well, if you're trying to apply rules by the way you think they should be instead of the way they are, you really need to come take an RO class or come take an RO class again and get or audit an RL class. Yeah, and yeah, uh, and get you know, and get breast up on on what the rule, the current rules are. Um, you know, if if you it's been a while since you've been to an RO class, we all forget stuff as we get, you know, time goes on, and the rules have changed. Um gone are the days where the rules really didn't change much over a three-year period, other than maybe there'd be a few rulings. Um, but the rules stayed static for three years. That is gone. We we are pretty much updating the rule book every year now. And uh so, you know, come on down, at least audit another RO class, and uh, you know, you'll get all brushed up on what's going on with uh with the rules, and uh you'll be a much better RO for it.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Or just you know, if you have some insomnia, just try, you know, read a section of the rule book before bed.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

It looks really good. Make you better a better competitor too. But I mean, yeah, what we focus on is range officers, but you the more knowledge you have about it, the better off you're gonna be on either side of that timer.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Well, and I also like in the RO class, I tell people, you know, so we're teaching how to be R, but yeah, we're also teaching to be a competitor. Because unfortunately, as a competitor, sometimes you have to advocate for yourself to ROs who don't know the rules.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

And maybe trying to DQ you or penalize you for something that isn't a penalty or a DQ. So if you know the rules and know the rule book, you at least can, well, but the rule right here says I can, or you know, right says this is not a DQ, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

So unlike that video we have in the level one. So that's not a DQ, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Oh, yes, it is.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

He was extremely confident.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Yeah, wrong wrongness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

If you're gonna be wrong, you might as well do it with confidence.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Yeah. Do it with conviction.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Never in doubt.

Steel Challenge Bagging Centerfire Guns

SPEAKER_01 28:58

That's right. All right. Is it acceptable to flag and bag a center fire pistol and steal challenge matches in the same manner as a rim fire pistol? For context, my son junior shoots a rim fire pistol and center fire pistol. Instead of keeping a center fire gun in a holster after finishing, can he flag and bag it in the same way he does his rim fire? Or after showing clear, drop the hammer and bag it, it's more comfortable for him to not have the center fire gun in his hip while waiting and shooting rim fire. I could not find a specific role to address the scenario, and it's because there isn't one, really.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

Right. So if you want to bag your gun and you're under RO supervision, and that's all you know permissible, then you can do that. You you don't have to flag either one of them under U.S. uh steel challenge rules. So your REM fire pistol doesn't have to be flagged. The center fire certainly doesn't have to be flagged. The range command is if clear hammered down holster. And then if you uh request the RO to bag your gun before they call range is clear, you can do that, or you can ask him, can I bag my gun? And if he's supervising you and tells you yes, then that's fine too. Um yeah, there's there's no way to, I mean, there's no requirement to flag either one of those guns. But I mean, I know there's a different steel discipline that requires center fire handguns to be flagged, but it's not us. Um and yeah, if it's more comfortable to not be wearing it, that's fine too. Although the rules would allow you to wear it, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Well, and a lot of competitors that shoot multiple center fire handguns will bag you know various guns between you know between runs. So, you know, that's that's that's normal.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

It's still challenge. The opportunity to bag your gun and unbag your gun is is off is always right there, right? Right. So you can walk up, you don't have to wear it between stages, you don't have to wear it when you're not shooting. You can bring it up centerify gun in a bag, and when they tell you make ready, unbag it, get your bags up, shoot your stage, and when you're done, rebag it, right? So a little bit different than USPSA stuff where they typically don't bag it and unbag right there on the line. Um but yeah, I mean, perfectly permissible to do that.

Table Ammo And What Counts As Stowing

SPEAKER_01 31:16

All right. Okay, next question. We hosted a stage where all ammo must come from a table, and stowing was specifically disallowed. A competitor remembered a target after the if finished command, and they already dropped the mag into their hand. They reinserted it and shot the target. Is this an issue rules-wise? I vaguely remember a similar discussion on the podcast about a drop magazine or something, but I'll be damned if I can find it to figure out if this pertains to this particular case. We did not penalize the competitor figuring the ammo originated from a table and was technically never stowed. Sewing seems to mean either placing in a carrying device or perhaps simply going somewhere else while carrying the magazine, or at least in in our game. Is it defined? Should it be, in your opinion?

unknown 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

I think they're thinking of when you're doing a mandatory reload, you can't drop the mag and insert the same mag.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Well, you can, you just have to pick it up off the ground.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Well, yeah. I think that's where they got me too confused.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah, and I think that's what we were talking about on that episode.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, but I think you know, if they it was the mag they just took out of the gun and reinserted it, there's no penalty there. That's that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Um that's what I told them. I mean, it depends on the stage brief. All uh every stage like that is stage brief dependent. So yeah, if it says nothing on your belt or in your pockets, well then that's how you gotta do it. But in your hand is okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Oh, yeah. In the hands always allowed.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah, we don't have a definition of stowing anyway. So I mean, you can't stow your mags. Well, all right, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 32:52

And then I just had a 24 years in this sport. I've that's the first time I've ever heard that word used. Right. In relationship to the sport.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I mean, there's lots of places you can stow a mag, it's just we don't want to know.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Not in your mouth, can't put it in your mouth. You can't put it. I don't think it's gonna go there. Yeah. So yeah, no, so nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's not an issue rules-wise. It it could be like Jody said, if it requires a mandatory reload, you can't just drop it in your hand, and and like in the old days, they would drop it in their hand, touch it to their belt buckle, and then put it back in the gun. And that was called good, but not anymore. Those those days have long passed. Um but it's good that they didn't penalize the guy because obviously there was no penalty to be had there.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So he he's he kind of penalized himself and the time it took. Right. You know, it's it's it's like that video we have in the level one where the you know the guy stops shooting.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Oh yeah, the arrows like ranges yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Well, he I mean, he actually gets, you know, if clear hammer gonna holster that puts it away and then pulls it out.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Yeah, the arrows in range is clear when he pulls it out and reloads.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

You know, and then guys like you know, in the class this weekend, we were talking about it. And I said, somebody, you know, do the math. You know, that's like five seconds. You remember how your scores derived? It's points divided by time. That whole stage probably didn't take him 10 seconds to shoot. Um, you know, that's well not to mention these DQ jobs. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's it's not it's totally not worth, you know, think about things like that when you realize that that if time is going on, it's there it's not worth it's just a lot of times it's just not worth um, you know, going ahead and engaging those targets. Just take your FTSAs and your mics and go on.

unknown 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Your points wise, it's gonna all work out about the same. Maybe better. So and you may have saved some out.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Well, they could just stay in the match too, but yeah.

Concealment Shooters And Safe Draws

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Well, there's that. Okay. Um, I need some guidance on concealed, let's see. Yeah, I need some guidance on concealed carry competitors. Only thing I can see as far as the rules are concerned is that the competitor must handle his gun in a safe manner, just as any other competitor must do. In other words, we as ROs don't care if the gun is concealed or not. To include the magazines, is this correct you know to include the magazines, is this the correct policy, or is there something else we should be doing? And with the the bounty for shooting from concealment last year at at uh factory gun, we had a lot of folks shooting from concealment.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Well, we should we should point out that SCSA disallowed Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Competition rules. In fact, I had I've had several students in classes recently shooting from concealment. And it's it's totally okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:02

It's turned into a thing. Oh yeah, I I answered him and you know, I told them as long as they draw safely, they're all right, right? So that means they gotta have their body in the right position position. And be uh, you know, where their muzzle is when they draw.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, the muzzle has to be past the 180, or can't be past the 180. Has to be downrange of the 180. Let's put that one.

unknown 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yep. And that's that's the that I mean, really, that's the trickiest thing. You know, the first couple times I went across a competitor shooting from concealment, you know, like somebody competitor came up to shoot, and I'm like in the back of my mind going, doesn't he want a gun? You know, like, oh, he must be one of those guys shooting from concealment.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Sure enough.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Um yeah, it's I have yet to see I have heard of it happening, but I've yet to see uh an open competitor shoot from concealment.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Um that seems like that would be a little warm on the register.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

You know, I've heard it, I've heard that there are people that do it, but man, that's a that's a you know, maybe if you had a little a shorty open gun, but my open gun, that thing's far too big to be shooting from you know, from appendix carry.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Um it's like the joker in the Batman movie when he draws his long revolver.

Steel Challenge Division Double-Dipping

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah, exactly. Oh, well, let's see. Um we'll save number nine for our at the end. We'll go over that with some other stuff. Um, all right. Rule 633, I believe is a steel challenge, states competitors are limited to a single firearm per division. A competitor may, however, compete with the same firearm in multiple divisions within the same match. For example, a competitor may use the same firearm in production and limited divisions, but not be permitted to shoot twice in production or twice in limited. So the question is: if a match allows a competitor to shoot three divisions and he or she shoes open and limited optics, then changes uh his first name in practice score and selects open again. Is this legal? Practice score is not allowed two divisions the same unless you change your first name as I tried it to verify. Same membership number used.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Just said you can't shoot the same division twice.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Yeah, and changing your first name is just that's basically dishonest.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Well, it's just like a level. That's how you have to do it in practice group, but then you can change it back. Um but it just it means if you're you can shoot, if you were shooting limited optics and then shot open, great. Yeah. But if and then let's say you shot limited optics, carry optics, and open, great. But you can't shoot open, open, and l. Yeah. No matter what you give a practice score.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

But if you're changing your name to be able to do that, you're basically cheating.

unknown 38:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Well, that too. But your member number's the same. We're we had this whole conversation with the staff guys, right? You gotta give them a slightly different name, but then after you've registered, you can actually go back and correct it to your correct name.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, but it's you're not supposed to do it. You're supposed to know you're supposed to shoot the declared divisions, and you're only supposed to shoot at one time per match.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Right. So But there's a lot of steel challenge clubs out there at their club match that let people shoot the same division twice. Yep. And it's if you're doing that, stop. Just freaking stop. Just freaking stop it because those people go to a level two or higher mats and then they're they're entered twice, and then they got all been out of shape because well, in my club, they let me shoot open twice every time. It's like, well, what club? Well, I'm not telling you. Yeah, that's probably a good idea.

Flagged Rifles On Carts Done Right

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Well, we can go look at your class, your your scores and tell you, tell what club it is. So there. Um yeah. Yeah, that's uh just that's one of those just because you can doesn't mean you should type things. All right. All right. So the match starts with a shooter's meeting held by the match director. General items gone over as typical. No specific instructions having been given regarding rifles that are on carts that are flagged but unbagged. Competitor is on depth contestant, and as the current shooter is finishing up, he goes to his cart, which is within two yards of a side berm, uncarts his flagged rifle while keeping the muzzle pointed towards the berm. No other people or gear are between him and the berm, and takes the muzzle on up into the vertical position and goes to the starting and awaits commands from the RO. Has a compass contestant done anything illegal? The cart meets rule meets all rule criteria. Um, no, we've done it by the book. I have a sticky feeling there's a story behind this question. I have a feeling someone got deq'd.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Um as long as the rifle stays vertical and they don't remove the chamber flag until we make ready.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah. It's all good.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

No, that's that's perfectly legit. And you'll find that matches that don't deal with long guns routinely um seem to not be able to consistently do this properly. Um, so it's a good this is one of those situations where it's a really good idea idea to be very familiar with the rules and have them available to show anyone that might have a question and help educate them.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Do it nicely, don't be a jerk. All right. Let's see. And level two, oh go ahead. Is this the just freaking stop section?

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Apparently. Isn't the whole podcast just the just freaking stop section?

SPEAKER_00 41:57

No, no, no, there's some of them that are more high priority for the just freaking stop labeling.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Well we have some of those coming.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Yeah.

Reshoot Gaming And RM Involvement

SPEAKER_01 42:07

All right. At a level two match, a PCC competitor tripped and then sat on the ground grabbing his knee in pain. The RO asked if he was okay and got no response. So he said stop after 30 seconds. PCC guy pops up and demands a reshoot for RO interference. CRO doesn't even call the RM because he know he did wrong and gives him a reshoot. Former student uh asked what the RO should have done. Um and Jody, why don't you take it for you?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, I told him uh the proper words the RO should have said is if you are finished, unload and show clear. Um, because then it can't be misinterpreted as RO interference. Um and I also said that the CRO should still call the RM and told him about it because everyone knew the guy was game in a research, right? And yeah, per the rules, the RO didn't interfere, okay, whatever. But the RM still needs to know to keep for future for the future and probably take the guy aside and be like, dude, really? Um but as an R, whenever you have a situation like this, always say if you're finished on Load Show, clear, unless they're bleeding, you know, if they've shot themselves, yeah, yeah, that's a different situation. Um but you know just be aware that there are unfortunately competitors if they're they will try to figure out a way to game a reshoot if they something has gone wrong on the stage.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah, well, and we've we know of cases where can competitors have intentionally attempt attempted to foul the ROs to get a reshoot.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, that's all of that demands a 10 six TQ.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Absolutely. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

I mean, you're right. If you're finished on loading so clear, and then the next words out of my mouth would have been you're disqualified. Yeah, because you Not gonna think an injury sitting on the ground, and then as soon as I say stop, pop up and ask for a re shoot. I mean, it's there was a similar case like this a while back where a guy just when he got done with the stage, he had really tanked it, and after he was done, he just started walking downrange, and the RO kept walking behind him. You know, if you're finished, if you're finished, if you finished, he never responded. He was just looking at targets. His gun was safe. He was pointing at downrange and everything. And then the the instant the RO said stop, he demanded a reshoot, right? Because he stopped him before he was finished with his stage. Well, that's another point. Yeah, you're gone.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

He demonstrated you're done.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

After enough time in the last score is zero, so you're yeah. Yeah, but I mean the guy was cheating.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, the RM should have been called for this.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

You know, I mean, I I get what the CRO is like, well, I don't want to waste the RM's time, but this is stuff where this unsportsman like conduct stuff always, always involve the RM.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Absolutely. Always. Well, for one thing, it's a disqualification, so you have to get the RM over there anyway. But I would get the RM over there maybe even in advance of declaring the 10-6, just so they're present. Because those of all the R the disqualifications that are they get contentious, and a lot of them can, 10-6 is is gonna be one that's uh more prone to be contentious.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Um but if the ROs that said if you're finished, right.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

But if you say, hey, hey man, are you all right? And he doesn't answer you, you should be thinking about what's coming next. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Yeah, because if he's hurt, he's gonna be like, Hell no, my knee hurts like crazy. I can't stand up, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah, and usually if they're truly in pain, they're not silent either.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

Yeah, they're gonna say something. Yeah. So yeah, I I hate it when I see stuff like this. This is just ridiculous. I mean, what's the point, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Well, it's the win the Cadillac, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Obviously. Well, you know, you use George Corvette.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Maybe that's what we give for a hundredth episode. We'll give away George's Corvette.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

With George. With George in it. We haven't said hi to George on the podcast in a while, so it's time.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

We'll see if he's still listening.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Yeah. Oh, we'll find out. Yeah, I'm amazed that the rest of the competitors actually put up with this type of crap. And, you know, I I don't I don't know if it's just people are afraid to speak up anymore. Um because, you know, we've all become softer, gentler, whatever. Um, and we're trying not to have any conflict at all in our lives. I I'm not really sure it's the wokeification of America.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

I don't know what it is, but you know, it's I if I've been competing in PCC and saw that, I I would have said something to the RN. Yeah. Because it's not fair to all the other competitors in PCC who did not get reshoots. That's right. So And from what I've from what I've read in RM after action report, there were a lot of people that tripped on the stage.

Popper Calibration And Reset Confusion

SPEAKER_01 47:36

So well, you know, that that brings that whole are your pro stage props safe thing into play. Um sometimes it's that's another one of those, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Um things. Um so all right. And the next one, I think this was also from you, Jody, right? Yeah. Um at a recent match, I noticed something that was incorrect. They called for a calibration call, and no one remembered who had set the steel. Not uncommon, really. Uh so the rangemaster called for a mandatory reshoot without shooting the steel at all. It was a small popper that had very small edge hit, about four to five inches below the calibration zone. I don't know if this is a club thing or not speaking up. We'll get your buddy a reshoot. The popper was the last shot taken and was in the open was in the open, so the shooter knew instantly that it didn't fall.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah. And I I did clarify. So the arm just rolled up. First thing the arm did was ask who who re who set that and no one answered. So they just issued a reshoot. I mean, yeah, it was a low hit, but still, per the rules, you still calibrate it.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

I've shot plenty of low poppers that have gone poppers like that and they've gone down. So it's still it's a valid hit. It's a hit.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

It's a hit, just anywhere on the frontal surface. There's a lot of people who can it has to be a hit in the calibration circle. I'm like, no, no, no. That's for the RM.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

I've shot calibrations on people that hit the hinge. Right home. But no way it was going down, but I'll shoot it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

But the rules don't say that it's a reshoot if we don't know who said it. It just says that we like to have the person who said it said it. If not the RO, an RO will reset it, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Um, it's not a reshoot if you don't know uh who set the steel.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

So that's a pretty egregious mistake to make.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah, that's totally not in the rules.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

So what what happens? I mean, I never ask who said it on the first shot. I'll go out there and shoot it, and then all right, let's get a reset. Who did it, right? So most of the time somebody will volunteer, but I mean at that point, it's like, well, fine, it went down. You're gonna you got a mic. Maybe somebody's gonna speak up, right? Well, maybe even to shoot it. Well, look, I know I know Mike over there said it. Why didn't you know? No, no, no, you gotta do it again, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:00

I mean, most of the times when I've gone, people won't fess up to it because like it's they're worried about being, I don't know, penalized or being disliked. So usually I it's just an RO who goes and resets it.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

So yeah, but you want to play games, then let's play, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

So the weirdest one I had was I said, so okay, need to have it reset. Who reset it? It was actually the competitor that had shot it down or shot it down, had been the person reset and said, dude, you were resetting your own steel. You need to be yelling at the rest of your squad. You shouldn't be resetting steel before you shoot. And I said, and we're gonna have somebody else reset it because there ain't no way in hell I'm letting you do that. Yeah. Because you know, it'll go sideways, and I'll be read, I'll get to read about it on the internet. So um, but yeah, that was a that was a fun one.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

It's like what no one ever criticizes anyone on the internet.

How To Use The USPSA LMS

SPEAKER_01 50:54

We we have this, we have the uh procedure we have for calibrating poppers because of the internet. Yeah, that's true. And me, so and George. And George wrote it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So all right. Um that's all we had for questions, and uh we want to kind of talk, we've been getting a lot of questions from folks about how to actually use our learning management system. Um, and I don't know why all of a sudden, but I had a couple questions this weekend, and um we had some questions come in by email. So, Jody, do you want to give everybody a brief rundown on what what to expect in the LMS, how to watch videos, how to go to the next slide section, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

So the LMS, when you get access to it, you access it through the USPSA website. There's a link that you get sent. Your instructor can also send you the link if you basically when you register for a class, it always asks you to confirm your email address. Make sure it's an email address that you actually check.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Okay. And shortly after you register, you're gonna get an automated email with some information about how to access the LMS and valid class. If you don't get that email, check your spam folder. Yep. Um, if it's not in your spam folder, you might want to reach out to USPSA IT occasionally. There's providers that have blacklisted USPSA, and he can do a thing to get you whitelisted and the emails will come through. But anyway, regardless. Um, if you go, if you're logged in the USPSA website, you're under the NRI or members sections. There's an NRI section, and there is a learning system uh link that will take you to the class. Um, you pick your course on the your course will be there. Usually you're only enrolled in the RO seminar or the CRO seminar. You click on the course, and there's like, I think both of them have a quiz you have to complete. And then there's a series of videos you have to watch. Um, the videos, you can't watch them at twice, 2x speed or 4x speed. You have to watch them and 1x speed. Um, there are some of them. It's basically all about the time it takes to watch the video for you to complete the video. So that's why you can't fast forward through them. Um, there's some of the videos you have to watch to the absolute complete end of the video for it to count because of the timing. Um, and then after you've got done with the video, um on the CRO, you just watch videos. On the RO course, you have to answer a couple questions, take-home message questions for each video. The button to get to the questions is on the lower left under the video. I think it says next. You click that and it'll do the questions, and then that module is complete and it lets you access the next video. Uh, the reason we have the videos in a certain order is because the kind of information builds on it. So you need to know the information of video one to understand video two. Um, we have uh I've just recently updated those those videos. So we have a very soothing voice of Bertle Reynolds as the narrator. Um, he was very hard to contract from the afterlife. Yeah. Um, but he did it for us because he likes us. Um I can't remember the name, though. It's not a celebrity for the CRO seminar. I'm still in the process of donating those, sorry. Um but um I did I wanted to use different voices for the different courses. Um now we might have to revisit this. We are in the process of updating the LMS to the newest version. From what I've seen, it's a little different. Um I might make a little video for the new one so people could understand how to use it. But basically, you have to go through, do all the sections, and they'll get checked off as you complete them. Once you've done all the learning sections, all the sections, you're gonna get an email that says you've completed the course. That is only the online work. You still have to come to the seminar and complete the requirements at the seminar. Um, but you know, you've got to rec you also have to complete the online course part to pass the class in the end. Um, the biggest thing is if you um are having issues, reach out to us. Um it's very helpful for us to know what kind of device you're on, what kind of browser you're using. Um because sometimes like Google, Chrome, Firefox, usually those are not problematic. Um sometimes on a phone things look different than on a computer. Yeah. Most most people try a different device and it works for them. Um if you're using something that's kind of really out of date, it might not work well. You have to make sure your browser is up to date.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

So it's I had a student in the class that was trying to use a fairly old Chromebook and was not having joy and had to go over to a friend's house and use because there's security settings that have changed over time that are blocked.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Um we do use host the videos on Vimeo. So if there's a rare occasion where Vimeo is having issues, then our videos don't play. Um, but it's very, very, very rare. So um you can always email me, email your instructor build, and then just usually forward the email to me. Um you can email us at rules at uspsa.org. Um basically ask. Um, but in my experience, 99% of the time it's user error. And the left lower left button is the the been the popular one lately. So I'm hoping that the new LMS it has a more sleek design that it'll be less confusing.

Email Quarantine And Cybersecurity Delays

SPEAKER_01 56:42

We'll know shortly. Yeah, we will um the other thing we'll just let you all know is that we recently, because of the volume of spam and other assorted phishing, spear phishing, all that stuff that that we get as an organization. Our IDT department has put in a system that quarantines some suspicious-looking emails. Um, and then we don't find out about them until noon the next day when we get a summary email of what's in quarantine, so we can go grab them. So um thus far, we haven't seen that happen to at the rules at uspsa.org email address that I'm aware of. Um, but I think all three of us have had stuff get hung up. I had a student at a class um this weekend that emailed me about something and I didn't see it until um, well, I didn't check my email on Saturday until I got back to the hotel. So um I the email came in at noon, but I didn't see it until that evening. But we've taken care of the issue long before then. But so just be aware uh it may take a little bit. If you're spending these seem to be um emails that are coming from you know, some of the really more sketchy uh email providers like Juno and AOL and things like that. The two that I've had to hang up, one there were both AOL. Um, because it's been around for forever, and a lot of those are the same.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

I was gonna say those are uh some long-lived email addresses.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Yeah, Juno and AOL are probably some of the long oldest out there.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Um but um remember we used to get the CDs in the mail to install AOL. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Yeah, I don't know how many ALL usernames I had because you get like the free the free month, and well, then you had to pull the login.

SPEAKER_04 58:38

Or maybe I'm dating myself. You probably didn't have to log in on a telephone.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

So well I had dial up. You still had to log into ALL.

unknown 58:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

But yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

Yeah, that system is uh I haven't had anything held up that I didn't see. In fact, I saw them before I the next day I got the notice that it was suspicious. I'm like, well, too late. Yeah. So too late. I already clicked on all of it. I I don't think that I'm not a fan of that system right now. If it's gonna tie stuff up like that, that's that's kind of crazy, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:16

You guys must get emails from sketchier people than me.

unknown 59:19

Apparently.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

I got emails from two people in the class. Neither one was an AOL or a Juno address. And I got the email, read it, no problem. The app the attachment was fine. And then uh, you know, here we here in the next 24 hours later, I get this thing from Black Track or whatever the heck it's called. And uh it's like, oh, this looks suspicious. I mean, maybe know something I don't know about that guy, but the email was fine. Yeah. So you know, we we have a lot of cybersecurity training. I I don't understand why we need this, but if it starts hanging stuff up, I'm gonna protest about it.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

So yeah, and you know, I I know at least where well where Jody and I work, our cyber security insurance more or less requires it, or it the rates go up. So yeah, I think that's they're in cahoots with the people that sell this software. So let's see, which is gonna be more buy the software or pay the higher rates. Hmm. But oh well. Well, it ever works anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

What's the theory most people have that that Norton generates viruses so they can sell you antivirus?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Probably. Well, Nort Norton has a virus on your computer anyway. So it is well. Yeah, they both of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

They just recently busted a large Brazilian uh provider that provide that was selling um services to help you prevent distributed denial of service attacks, but they were producing said distributed denial of service attacks. Um I was like, hmm, uh a little fishy.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:07

Um it's like the old medieval I mean, the saying they had about the medieval thing, those who generate the sickness sell the cure.

Travel Season And Airline Reality

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

That's right. So well, that's the end of our list. Um anything else we need to we need to pontificate about or tell people to stop freaking doing or well, treatment season's warming up.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:33

Oh, matches coming up. So if you're requesting RO seminars, try not to do it in the middle of nationals or uh all the area matches that are happening across the summertime and all that good stuff. I mean, we're still getting them in. I think we're at about 80 or 81 right now, so uh but we can't be everywhere all the time. We did six this past weekend. Yep. Um myself and Jay posted some pictures about them, but uh still waiting on some of the other instructors if you're listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

I know, I got it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

Send them.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

I've got it. Gary wants the expense report too. And guess hey, guess what? I got home at midnight on Sunday and I've been working since.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

So well, I got home at at 1:30 on on my on Sunday, well, Monday morning, actually.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:28

Wonderful flight delays, etc.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

So well, I'll tell you what, the uh I was on the eastern seaboard uh because I I flew Spokane to Minneapolis to Columbus and then Columbus to Atlanta to Spokane. So I kind of did the Great Circle right there. Yeah, it's great for this frequent flyer mile status, but man, it was a part on my butt. And uh the uh it was when you got out once you got on the Eastern Seaboard, the shutdown of Spirit Airlines was very noticeable. Yeah, every plane was packed full. There were all sorts of people trying to fly on standby just to get anywhere closer to home. Um, you know, you kind of really got to feel for anybody that was flying spirit and got hung up. Right. Um, so that really impacted the flights on the East Coast.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

Yeah, I left Boston with a with a uh notified delay that was gonna mess my connection up, which was gonna be through um excuse, I can't remember where it was through. But so I changed because Southwest, you know, you can pretty much change on the app, and I changed the flying to Nashville, which made me sit in Boston a little longer, but got me home about the same time. And so the flight from Boston to Nashville was packed, right? Yeah, and um and it showed up late, and then it took over to unload it because there was a lot of drunk people coming back from Nashville. Um the Nashville done with 35 people on it, right? So I mean, great flight, got there early, all that stuff, you know, lots of room on the plane, obviously. But the interesting thing was was taxi in. I'm looking out the window and I could see every Spirit Airlines jet that was at New Orleans parked at the old airport.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:22

Because you can still see they built a new one, but you can still see the gates at the old airport. And they were just stacked in the gate area at the old airport, tons of yellow airplanes there. So um, I mean, I don't know. It which is the next one that's gonna be the the fight central airline, is what I'm wondering. Is it jet blue? Jet blue raising your hand.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

Yeah, probably jet blue. Um, you know, it's it's really kind of too bad they didn't let jet blue and spirit merge because they could have had they could have had a fighting pun intended chance.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:58

Right. Exactly. I mean, I I don't know. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Anywho, so yeah, it's a little different out there. But on the other hand, if you want to buy a 737 cheap, there's a lot of them for sale.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:11

There's probably gonna be some, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

I just I hope all the crew that were affected, uh the crews and their families and all the employees. I I hope that they're able to find gainful employment uh rapidly because that's that's an awful lot of people to suddenly be unemployed in that industry.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

So that's Southwest had published something about accepting uh you know taking some of the employees from from spirit, etc.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

So yeah, I think all the major carriers were uh ramping up the interview. Um so yeah, so that's uh anyway, that's uh that's an industry that we rely upon, that's for sure. And I I have a lot of friends in in that industry, and um, so it's uh yeah right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:58

Well there you have it, folks. My opinion on the on the flight industry.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Yeah. Well, we spend a lot of freaking time in the airplane seats.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:06

And absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

You know, it's we all have our opinions about airlines we will and we won't. And spirit has always been one of my I ain't flying that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

Yeah, me too. Well, it doesn't fly in this part of the country much anyway, so it wasn't really not.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Even when I get back there, I was never gonna fly spirit.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:24

And uh big where I live though.

Wrap Up And RO Seminar Links

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Yeah. Um you know, it's and out here it's like frontier. It's yeah, frontier. I have to be pretty freaking desperate before I get in frontier. I get on a Legion before I get in frontier. Um so it's uh yeah, it's it's it's it's it's vital to to what we do, so um but anyway. All right, well, anybody got anything else? Nope. Alright, folks. Well, as usual, if you have any questions, comments, um you want to buy a 737 cheat rules at uspsa.org. We can't sell it to you, but we can tell you where to find them. Um anyway, shoot us an email and we'll get back to you as soon as we can with an answer, and you may get your answer used on the podcast. Um with that, we will see you all in two weeks. Thank you very much. Good night, everybody. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NRY seminars under the NRI tab at USPSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRI seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRI tab at USPSA.org.