Welcome

SPEAKER_01 0:04

This is the NROI podcast, your source for factual information for USPSA and SPSA competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Officers Institute, United States Practical Shooting Association, and Steel Challenge Shooting Association. All world books can be found at USPSA.org slash rules, SPSA.org slash rules, and on the USPSA and SPSA apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rights for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Rule discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules should be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 97, recorded early April 2026. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the NRI Podcast. Kevin Emmel here with my usual co-conspirators, uh Jody Human. Good evening, Jody. Good evening. And Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Good evening. So maybe you forgot our names for a minute.

Nationals Pre-Match RO Staffing

SPEAKER_01 1:22

No, I just didn't in reverse order just to fool with you. All right. Let's see. Um before we get going into the mailbag, we have some announcements and other stuff we want to talk about. Um Tori, do you want to put out the call for race gun national pre-match ROs?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

I have a couple of things. Yeah. So uh first off, the staff applications that went out for both factory gun and race gun or for main match staff, staff shooting the staff match or pre-match for free, right? Um, I've had several inquiries. Well, I I want to do it the other way. I want to work pre-match and then I want to shoot the main match. And the answer to that is uh no, we have another uh application coming out from for that. It's a sort of a different segment of the budget to cover those expenses and it's a different package. And we're just really looking for local folks, you know, that can drive in and out every day and take care of that. We will cover that mileage, we're gonna give you a per diem, we're gonna feed you on the range, um, but no lodging, right? So lodge is pretty expensive, so we're not gonna do the lodging, and then if you get selected for that, and we only need 12, 13 people, um you get uh you get a slot in the main match uh for free. So there's a there's a couple squads that have been reserved for that, or at least one squad, because they're all 12-minute squads, uh reserved for for pre-match staff. Um, I have had a couple of pre-match, I mean uh main match staff sign up when they got their codes and squad themselves in the in the main match and have indicated on the application I will not shoot the the pre-match. That's not how that works, right? So uh that's been fixed. And uh we will be sending stuff out for the for both matches, the the race gun and the factory gun, uh soliciting range officers as locals to come in and and staff the competitor squads for the pre-match at both matches. So that's what I got.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

Alrighty. Um Jody, anything from you?

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Well, I mean, if you aren't on Facebook and missed our April 1st announcement, that's on you.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah. That didn't get nearly as much reaction as I was hoping it would get.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

No. No, maybe I should have left off the April Fool's joke part at the end.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

I don't know. We'll have to do better.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah. Next time. My my favorite April Fool's stuff was put out by Makita and DeWalt. Um some of the advertisements they came up with this year were outstanding. But uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Well, I thought TSA was trolling people saying that clear carry on bags was gonna be a requirement.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

That could be revealing to the new degree.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yeah. I don't want to see what fits in people's bags.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Thank you very much. Yeah, and I I do I do find it hilarious the dress code that some of the airlines are now enforcing and not letting people bored if they're not dressed appropriately. Um I'm I'm I'm all for that because wow, some of the stuff you see.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Well, yeah, I'm I'm for uh I don't like the first time I flew when I was like in middle school, we dressed up in like Sunday clothes, right? And then we thought there was and had to walk through the smoking section to use the restroom in the back of the plane. Um I'm not for like super dressy because I want to be comfortable when I fly, but yeah, no pajamas and uh yeah, you know, wear clothes that cover yourself.

Range Commands Getting Sloppy

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Well, and you need to be wearing shoes because nobody wants to look at or smell your stinky feet. And yeah, it's up and wall. Yeah, well, yeah. It's out of control, but anyway. Um I have a couple friends at airline pilots that have stories galore about that stuff. Oh, I'm sure. Anywho, um, all right. Well, what one of the things we've been talking about a little bit lately and we've all been experiencing um is some sloppiness, let's just say. Uh the tolerances are slipping on the range commands. And uh so we thought we would talk about some specific examples um where we're seeing some some problems starting to crop up and we're hearing about it and from other from clubs around the country um that some things are starting to happen, and maybe we can talk through some of that and get people's awareness cranked up a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Sure. I mean, I think the ones I've heard about are mostly at the end of the range commands. Um my biggest pet peeve is like when I have my race holster. And sometimes it takes me a couple tries to get the gun in there just right so I can lock it. Um, I've had ROs give me ranges clear where I'm still physically handling the gun, trying to get it in the holster. Yeah. And um don't give ranges clear until the person's done handling the gun. With race holsters, I generally wait till they're done locking the holster. Yeah. Just in case sometimes you have to take the gun out and reposition it to get the lock to work, right? Um, don't rush to range is clear. And then related to that, sometimes squads aren't paying attention and don't wait till range is clear is called to go down range and start scoring and taping. Right. Um, make sure that you are paying attention to that. And you know, we recently had a question with the RO's like my whole squad went down there and I yelled at them, but shouldn't I just give them procedurals? Well, if you look in the rule book, there's no rule for that. Right. I mean, the closest thing would be if they walked in front of a drawn gun and got swept, but then that's on the shooter, not the squad. Um but really that's an RO, a lack of range control by the RO.

SPEAKER_04 8:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Right. And yeah, yelling at them, getting them to go back is the proper way to handle it. And to remind them, hey, don't go down range until range is clear is called. Um, if they keep doing it, call the range master and let them uh educate them.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Um, but I mean the biggest thing is the RO's job is to maintain a safe stage. And a lot of times that is competitors are busy talking with their buddies, they're only half paying attention. They assume that clearing out the competitor, getting them holstered or their PCC flag is gonna take a couple seconds. They don't anticipate there may be an issue that might make that process a little longer, and they start walking down range. I mean, I've been a taper and many times reminding people to stay back because I'm watching the RO and listening for range is clear. So just be aware of that. And um again, those are not on the clock, so don't rush through it.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Correlated to that is having your squad up there on the stage with you close enough to be able to do that, right? You shouldn't have anybody out there on the stage. So it is an RO control thing, and need to pay better attention to that kind of thing. Because I mean, we've seen any number of times when there were squad people walking the stage or just creeping up so they could tape and reset. Or uh, you know, especially if they're doing early scoring or something, they're coming along like that and they're just jamming the whole place up in case that competitor has to run back. So, or videoing, you know, not paying attention when they video. So, yeah, the RO needs to be in control of that. And the CRO specifically is is given that uh prerogative in the rules. So take care of your stage.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Well, and you know, we we specify that every shooter needs to be run by at least two ROs. I've had many stages over the years where it really took three to run the stage correctly. And and there that's not a really a problem. But all of the ROs need to be working and singing from the same hymnal and getting you know controlling the entire stage. You don't let people go down range until it's until the range is clear. You you know, you you keep the you know, my personal rule for cameras is the cameras don't go forward of the rearmost RO, and if that rearmost RO is standing on the rear fault line, so be it. Um, you know, there's a there's a reason for that, and the more bodies you put down range, the more of a mess you make. So um that's but it's the ROs. And it this goes even down to level one matches where the dude holding the timer and the dude holding a scoring device, you're the ROs, okay? And you need to control it. And you know, if you can't, then you need to give those devices to somebody that can because otherwise people are gonna get hurt and or at least badly scared. And it's it's gonna be on you because you didn't control the stage.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Yeah.

Start Signals And Short Beeps

SPEAKER_01 11:24

So the the one of the other ones that I'm seeing more and more is the the tendency to not vary the start signal and to short beep people. Um it's I've you know, watching some various match videos that show up on Facebook and Instagram and whatnot, seeing a lot of standby beep um and uh you know things like that. So and it's always the same start signal. Now we steel challenge, that's appropriate, but not in USPSA.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

So um well, even in Steel Challenge, it should be at least one second between Steel Pass.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, but but not varying it is not varying it, you know, everybody's two seconds. That's fine in Steel Challenge. It's not okay in USPSA.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Well, and you know, if you're the competitor and someone fast beeps you, just don't react. I know it's hard not to, but just don't react and tell them to restart you.

Rule 11.5.5 Shortcut Penalties

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yep, absolutely. That is not okay. All right, anything else on that? All right, moving on. Um so we'll dive into the mailbag here. I had a question about rule 1155, and we knew we were gonna get a lot of questions on this rule. Um if 1155 is applied to a stage and shooters decide shooter decides to step out of bounds and take a shortcut, fires four shots at a target, realizes that they made the mistake of taking a shortcut, and decides to run back uh to where and enter where they exited, what would be the ruling on this? I know it would be a foot fault and then four penalties for taking the four shots, but if the shooter decides to go back and have a stage where they took the shortcut, would this be another foot fault?

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, no, not foot faults. There would be there would be penalties for the five. Yeah. There's no double jeopardy.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

And well, and you can't like do an action to get yourself out of your penalties.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

No, you can't switch your way out. So in actuality, no additional penalty for a foot fault, unless he fired shots while he was out of bounds. But uh it's a penalty for a shot for every shot he fired after he went out, whether he came back in or not. So it may not be four, it may be however many more he takes, right? Yeah, that's a pretty pretty stiff penalty, and it's specifically spelled out like that. So there's no way you could get around it. You can't run back to where you you stepped out and advanced and then come back and unadvance. And you can't shoot your way out of it. In fact, this is gonna be very costly if he had to shoot more than the four rounds that he shot at a target, like it said in here. So yeah, but no additional penalty.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Well, that's that's still that's a pretty heavy penalty to pay.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Oh, yeah. It's you know, yeah. You know, and it's it's been this is not the first time we've got a question about this, it's just been super poorly applied all over the place, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Yeah, and this is why you need to pay attention when they read the WSB.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Starting with you need to read the WSB.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Yeah, well I said if when they read the WSB, and they should be reading the WSB. But we're we'll talk about that later.

Weak-Hand Stages And Revolvers

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Okay. All right. Next question. Um stage is strong hand only or weekend only. Revo shooter uses incapacitated hand to cock the hammer between each shot. Um said it would be violating 10 to 8, but all the sub rules for 10 to 8 say while firing a shot. What say you all? And hi, Brian. I don't I don't think he listens. Oh, well, he should. What your own brother doesn't listen to the podcast? Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

I don't think he's a podcast consumer in general, so he does all that travel.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

He's that's a good way to kill time on trap when traveling. I mean, I don't listen to our own podcast, but well, I'm here, so I do. I actually listened to it a couple times before it ever gets published.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Yeah, well, you edited.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I take out all the juicy stuff. Um anyway, um, we we all talked about this, and that that is not allowed. Um you know, it's it's not a necessary action. Revolver in USPSA is generally double action, and their only reason they would be doing this would be to um get around the double action poll. I would I would tend to think you'd see it a lot more with weekend because they're thinking they can get an advantage on accuracy on their weekend shooting. But no, it's it's not okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Okay, hypothetical. Because you know, I I when I said, well, you're using your incapacitated hand. That's not the point of that rule, right? Um but what if what if it was a revo shooter and they were using the wall edge to pull the hammer back?

SPEAKER_04 17:00

Wouldn't that be a lot? That's just like racking your slide on your belt or the wall edge.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

It's it's a really good way to have a negligent discharge with not a revolver, but hey, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Well, if you're I mean using your strong hand or whatever's specified hand to do it, and not the other hand, and just talking it on the wall edge or something, just like like Kevin said. I mean, we have look at that video we have of Brian Jones, you know, smacking his gun on a on a thing. So that's allowed. I mean, if if it was like that, then I don't think you could do anything about it, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:36

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

He's actually solving the problem to whatever his satisfaction is.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

But you can't reach over and do that. There's there's only three things that are allowed, specifically allowed. And while firing shots is kind of means when you're in the act of firing a gun, regardless if it's just not when it just goes off, right? So he's he's shooting the targets, he's firing shots. So I don't think any of the uh 1028 stuff is specific enough to to knock over that.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Well, and that is part of the process of firing a shot, so yeah, but that was a good question.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

I mean, a good hypothetical.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

It was just the pay attention to Kevin's warnings.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Well, and most of the revolvers you're gonna see from N USPSA don't have a hammer spray. Um most of us take that factory hammer and and replace it um to for a number of reasons. Um, but uh yeah, so I mean there are some out there, certainly. I've seen them, but most of them you see don't have that.

unknown 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

But the Wall Street Revolver team uh described them as with a$25,000 parts kit. I mean$2,500 parts kit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, I was gonna say, damn, they've got way better revolver than I have.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, no,$2,500.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

That's like some of the shotguns.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Right. I mean, we were talking trap shotguns at that.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Yeah, that's what I meant.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah. Yeah, it's um I don't know. I don't have near that in mind, but um, I bought a base model and did all the smithing myself and bought a lot of parts.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Um and uh yeah, it's I I probably got close close to two grand into it by the time you buy all the toys for it. But no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, it's but yeah, it's fun. All right. Besides, I think unless Brian bought another revolver, the one that he bought would put him in openings, isn't that ported?

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Well, that's his steel challenge revolver, but yeah, no, he the revolvers have multiplied. Well, he bought it some widow was selling her husband's git up and it had like the moon clip holders and stuff that he didn't have, so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

So now he's got one he can shoot in USPSA as well. Excellent.

Choosing A Legal Match Pistol

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah. World needs more revolver shooters. All right. Uh let's see. I want to start shooting USPSA, but my friend said my current pistol, an M MP380EZ, does not qualify and they need a different pistol to use. I'm thinking of purchasing a Walther PDP Pro E 9mm full-size four and a half inch barrel in 18 round magazine with a red dot site to add to it. But before I buy, I want to ask if the pistol fits all the necessary criteria for use in the optics section of competition. And that PDP, the Walther is that's a fine gun for uh several of our divisions, depending on which accessories and whatnot you put on it. Um so with the dot, you can you can you can should be able to shoot that in uh uh cary optics or limited optics, um, depending on Magwell or not. I'm not totally familiar with that gun, but if it has a Magwell, take it off and be in Carioptics, otherwise go shoot at limited optics. As for the MP EZ, your friend 380 EZ, your friend is absolutely right. In the United States, 380 is not an acceptable caliber. We talked about this last podcast, maybe the one before. Um, we have allowed 380 in some foreign countries where civilians are not allowed to possess firearms or shoot military calibers. So nine millimeter is a military caliber. Um, and this specific example, I think, is Mexico. Um so they're not allowed to have nine millimeter, but they can have 380. And so we have allowed for steel challenge purposes, we have allowed them to shoot 380. Um we keep getting questions. Was there Something else on that.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Somebody asked me if they could shoot 5.7 by 28. And I was like, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Well, why? It's such a cool caliper. I want to shoot it in steel challenge. I was like, oh, double absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah. Yeah, that is. No. That's that's like, you know, 30 carbene. That will cause erosion on your steel like you've never seen.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Yeah.

How To Order NROI Shirts

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Um, all right. Let's see. Uh, we keep getting questions, and in fact, I had a bunch of questions at my class a couple weeks ago at Albuquerque. Um, right after the class, people took their tests and were immediately emailing me, where do I get the shirts? So um you it's real easy if you go to uspsa.org slash nroi slash shirts. You do have to be logged into the website. Um, then it will there's it will tell you how to get shirts. Um so that's it's it's really logical. So uspsday.org slash nr. Yeah, there's give you a code and then you can go online and order your it it tells you how to do the whole process. It's simple.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Right. And it's five to certification. So if you're not certified, you can't just go in there and get that code, right? Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

Yep. So all right.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

I kind of glued this one together from multiple emails, I think, that Jody was involved with. Um, hey guys, I was at a shoot and this came up. I'm ignorant about this exactly, and specifically asked what seemed to be the head RO. I asked specifically, if I shoot two no shoots, see it, and then make up two good hits, and he cut then he cut me off and said I could hit the no shoots with as many rounds as I wanted to, but if I made up two shots with positive shots, it's all good. To clarify, this was on a double stack with no shoots in the middle, and it did get scored that way multiple times. So I shot the stage, got clean, no shoot hits, well into the no-shoot, a man after my own heart. Um, RO even said if I shot it five times and then shot two alphas, I'd just get the score for the two alphas. He clearly told me the no-shoot hits were void since we only score the two best hits. I didn't get into it with them as there seemed to be multiple arrows that we're fine with it. Just freaking stop. Yeah, there's so much wrong with that.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

You can't, like we said earlier, you can't shoot your way out of a penalty. Right. If you shoot the no-shoot five times, you're gonna get five no shoots plus your two alphas.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah, with that interpretation of only scoring the two bests, it specifically says scoring targets, right? Not no shoots, not nothing else. There's nothing else in the rules that says you can gain the no-shoot hit. Um and I mean that's just that's just dumb. I want to know where this guy got certified and who taught him, and whether he slept through class or not.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Well, we're assuming they're certified.

Running Uprange For A Magazine

SPEAKER_01 25:11

If he's certified, if he was taught in the case, well, that's what I said. And he definitely slept through class. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there were multiple ROs that slept through class. All right. Uh, let me get down. Let me scroll here. Um, there is a video going around um hit Instagram, God knows where else it's been posted from a match, apparently on Saturday. Competitor is shooting a stage where there's two shooting areas, one quite a bit forward of the first shooting area. He gets all the way down to the far shooting area, runs dry, realizes he has no more magazines on his belt, runs back up range to retrieve a mag a magazine off the range floor. Now, he did um holster his handgun before he ran back, um, so he was safe. Um and so there's been a lot of discussion about was that a DQ? Should he have been shot? Should he have been stopped? Um, was this the worst RO ever?

SPEAKER_03 26:22

We don't shoot our competitors, we're doing bad things, Kevin.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Well, even if we want to. Um, you know, it's should he have been stopped? Um not showing. Um, anyhow, um, boy, this podcast is gonna have a lot of editing in it. Um anyway, um I know we've all we've had a little bit of discussion about it. I think we all came to the same agreement that just for safety purposes, he should have been stopped about the time he got uh back up range of the downrange RO. Um and just for safety reasons.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Yeah, because there was the RO and the camera person.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Right. Yeah, yeah, there's there's no DQ there that I saw anyway. Um was it a bad RO? Well, the RO probably should have been paying better attention when he saw the guy not having any magazines and he's searching around on his belt for magazines, he probably should have been beaten feet backwards. But that's Mendy Moon quarterbacking it. And if you know, we've all uh we've all been in instances where we have seen something like that and gotten out of the way, and we've all been in instances where we didn't see that and didn't get out of the way. So there's good learning opportunity there.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

I mean, it was one of those things, it's like, yeah, the guy was safe, he you know, holstered his gun, whatever, but it still was something that shouldn't have the RO lost control of the situation. Right. Basically, and just for everyone's safety, stop should have been said. And then the guy would have got reshoot, which I don't think he would have been upset about.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Nope.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Based on how a state of the game.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As much time as he took to run all the way back up range, get a Mega run all the way back downrange. I'm not sure he helped his hit factor.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

It might have been better just to take the penalties. Yeah, yeah.

Classifiers And Steel Direction Rules

SPEAKER_01 28:37

But I mean, I haven't sat down and done the math, but it I think it'd be close. Um, because it was several seconds. All right, let's see. Forgive me if this has been covered in one of your podcasts and I missed it. The new classifier diagram formats dictate either forward or rearward falling steel. Our club will only allow the use of forward falling steel. What is the ramification of using forward falling if the diagram calls for rearward falling? The only time I can see this having an effect on a person's time would be if the steel was used as an activator, which is not done in classifiers. Please let me know how our club should proceed. And Torah, I think you had this one.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

I did. Um there's no there's no difference, uh effective difference in hard fall and rear falling steel. If that's what you have to shoot, then that's what you have to shoot. The only requirement is that that they all be the same type and the same size, regardless, right? So if you're shooting a full-size USPSA popper that falls backwards or falls forward, and the stage calls for a full-size USPSA popper that falls rearward, then you can substitute the forward falling in there. Um, but you can't change it for another size or shape. That's the only requirement with that. I I really don't know why those classifiers specify rearward or whatever. Because like like he says, it they don't activate.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Um, it's under the build instructions. They have a detailed build instruction table and they have a line for forward falling steel and a line for rear falling steel.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Written by somebody that sells steel, probably.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

No, this is just the line at the this is the nort uh 2501, looks like the only one that has steel on it. Yeah, so it's like uh two rows, and it's uh it just has prop inventory and it just has it standard for all of them, and it just has there's a rearwood rear forward falling steel and it has the different five five different types of steel, and then there's a rear falling steel with the five different types, and they have numbers in the boxes.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Well, good for them, but I don't I mean, I don't know, unless y'all disagree, I don't see any difference in that as long as it's the same size and shape. Um, and if that's what you gotta do, that's what you gotta do, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Well, I mean, some clubs have to use forward fallers and sure. And some clubs don't have any. If they're gonna dictate and be sticklers for that, there's gonna be some of those classifiers that don't get shot.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

Right. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

And I mean I'm glad this guy asked this question because I mean on on a rare occasion anymore, we still get complaints about uh this classifier wasn't set up right. What do we do? What do we do with this? I mean got a a measured diagram, should should be able to set it up. I mean, look, if you're an inch or two off, it's probably not a big problem. If you're feet off, that is a problem.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Well, and you know, that's we all know most roomward falling steel more or less does the same thing. There's discussions of some types fall differently. Okay. Forward falling steel, there's many different ways that that's done. And how fast that steel gets out of the way if you're waiting for it to drop to get another steel behind it, um, that can be very different. And it might be consistent from action to action, but it's not gonna be consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer to range to whatever else. So that would be pretty tough.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

But I don't think there's any classifiers with poppers hiding something.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

The two I saw, there's nothing, no nested poppers. So I mean, the only time it'll stay standing up is if you're double or triple tapping it.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Right. Well, and I I mean, hopefully you don't stand there and watch to see if it falls.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Kind of hit it and move on, so right. Uh anyway. That's that's not a not a deal.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

All right. Um, I was recently told that to open a closed port door with the muzzle of a firearm is a safety violation, but I couldn't find it in the rule book. Yeah, because it's not there. I'm hoping that someone could tell me whether I'm allowed to open port doors of the muzzle or any other part of the gun. Yeah, it's not in the book.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Well, I mean, the WSB could prevent that, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I mean, I guess we could spell it out, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, how would you write it? You must open a port with your hand, not your dun.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Yeah.

unknown 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I mean, they used to write that in quite a bit, and then everybody, you know, said that was dull. So I'm not sure that I've ever seen anybody crank one off through the port while they were opening it, but I'm sure it's happened. I'm not saying it's it hasn't happened, I'm sure it has, but it's probably because your finger was on the trigger when you did it. I don't know. I mean, I guess you could write it in and take your chances.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Well, I mean, that's I mean, yeah, there is no port in the remote book. There is no rule in the rule book that prohibits that, right? And as long as you're not breaking any other safety rule, sure, right? Yeah. Go ahead and do it. But you know, if the WSB specifically says you must use your hand to open the port, well, then that's a different thing, right? Yeah. And that would fall. It wouldn't be a safety violation, it would be a procedural for failing to follow the stage procedure.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Right. Well, I I've seen WSBs say you must open the door with your hand because they were afraid people were gonna kick it with their feet and destroy the door.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Um, that never happens in our matches.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Not in a while. But I still recall a certain door at a certain match in Missoula that has a had a lovely octagonal hole in it from somebody using their PCC as a as a battering room open the door.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yeah.

PCC Safety Must Be On Safe

SPEAKER_01 35:02

So oh my it's awkward. Yeah. Um let's see. There is a question, and ROs up to RMs are intermittent interpreting it differently. PCCLAR style safeties not being on the word safe on the firearm. These safeties can go up to 60 degrees, remaining unsafe before being disengaged to allow to fire. This rules, the rule state safety applied argument is that the firearm is still unsafe until the trigger can be pulled. This is an ancient argument going back over a decade and led to some changes in the multigun rules and how we handle weapons that are not unsafe, um, specifically rifles, when we're clearing them. But um Troy, what's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

So, yeah, like you pointed out in multi-gun rules, there's a there's a rule for abandoned guns that are being cleared that if the safety's not pointing at safe, right? Because it should have been abandoned with the safety on, um, then once they clear the gun, they'll pull the trigger and see if it'll if it's actually still on safe, because dropping it in a box or or in a barrel sometimes bumps the safety. Everybody understood that. Um, if it's not on safe and that and been in that barrel, but it's already been cleared, it's a 30-second or 30-point penalty. So that's multi-gun. For USPSA PCC specifically, it has to be pointance safe. I know there's some PCCs out there I've seen that that have a basically a 45-degree safety, but if that's the safety position, then that's a safety position. But the ones that turn a full uh 90 degrees have to be pointing and safe. We're not gonna make our ROs guess whether you're still on safe or not. Uh having it off safe is uh a DQ. So, you know, why be dumb about it and try to go up to 60 degrees? That's the other concerning thing about that. What if yours only goes to 55, right? How do we know? So we're not gonna play that game. It's gonna be pointed at the word safe. On the firearm, it's gonna be considered to not be on safe.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

So it's not having your PCC on safe at the start position of DQ or incorrect start position.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Well, it says safety on on single accent guns, and PCCs are are single accent guns for the rules.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Right. Sorry, the DQ.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Anyway, so yeah, that that we're not gonna go there. That's not something we want to see. So just we can stop it.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

Yep.

Falling Down Without Dropping The Gun

SPEAKER_01 38:02

All right. During the course of fire, competitor starts started to lose balance while running towards a shooting position. As he approached the desired area, he ultimately loses traction and eventually falls to the ground on his knees and uses both hands to break the fall. Competitor then pushes himself up with both hands while gun was in full contact with the ground. I'm assuming it was in his hands. Um gun says he was not engaged at this instance, although competitor did not lose control of the gun during the entire scenario. Okay, so it was not dropped. Um does his action constitute unsafe gun handling? No. As long as he didn't do anything unsafe. Um, you know, we have we have videos in the in the RO course, um, a couple of them with the competitor falling, um, and they remain safe, um, and they get up and continue the course of fire. Um, so that's yeah, that's not unsafe gun handling. Um unsafe, if unsafe gun handling occurs because they fall during the fall while they're getting back up, then it's the fall is kind of a moot point. It's they did unsafe gun handling. That's kind of the way to look at it.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, and it's not just because it's touching the ground, doesn't mean it's dropped, right? If it was in his hand in his control and it's on the ground, then he's just getting his gun full of dirt. That's that's the only repercussion there. So uh yeah, that's the thing about people thinking it's dropped, that it has to hit the ground and be dropped, and it doesn't. And just because it's touching the ground, but it's in your hand, doesn't mean it's dropped either, right? So drop means out of your control, and this guy did not do that. In fact, probably did a pretty good job keeping his guns right, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Pretty scuffed up and sore fingers after that, too.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yeah. Yeah, I bet. Yeah, it depends on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

True. Yeah, I guess I'm used to gravel.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah. He gravel versus sand versus turf versus whatever paint.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Good old grass.

Fixing Toxic Club Culture

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Mm-hmm. All right. Um that's all we have for the mailbag. I think we wanted to talk a little bit about some of the club culture stuff that we have been getting emails about. Um, so who wants to leave that off?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

I can go. Go. So we got a pretty detailed email from a competitor about the what it what did he call it? Gunbro culture.

SPEAKER_04 40:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Uh the gun bros out at this range he shoots, telling telling him that, you know, he shouldn't try to enforce the rules, and he, you know, he he had to yell at him to not go down the edge so the range was clear, etc. etc. And uh and their response was, well, then don't shoot USPSA. Well, you're not at that point, you're not shooting USPSA. This guy's trying to, but you're not letting him, right? So, I mean, I absolutely hate that. I hate that when somebody goes to a club when they're not doing things right, and it's an affiliated club that's supposedly running USPSA matches, and they don't care about following the rules, you know, and you know, and then they want to shout down anybody that comes in there and and tries to make it right, right? So that's where your people go shoot some bigger match and get disqualified because you've been treating them wrong and they don't know any better. And, you know, that's a problem. Plus, you're not living up to your USPSA club affiliation. People should be able to go to your match and have roughly the same type of experience that they have here in South Louisiana, whether they have it in the East Coast, whether it's on the West Coast, uh Midwest, anything, because everybody's following the same set of rules and behaving in the same way. But when you have a club that's doing this, man, not so much, right? Uh so but yeah, I I like that phrase. Then don't shoot USPSA. Well, I'm trying to, but you're not letting me.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Yeah, definitely. Well, the other thing is if you're gonna run matches and don't follow USPSA run rules, don't call them USPSA matches.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah. So I mean, that happens. That's kind of the basis of one of our questions, I think we had tonight, and and this uh comment from this guy. So we're gonna send his uh information to the section coordinator and the area director to see if they can't try to make some inroads at that club and getting them to do the right thing. So it's uh I mean it's kind of an ongoing thing, right? I mean, uh we get a lot of comments from people uh that say that you know we're they're glad that we're working to try to correct club culture, and some of the information we put out, et cetera, uh, really helped. And then some of them are just ignoring it, right? So I you know, I think for a lot of people, they go through the match, as long as they don't get disqualified or earn too many penalties, they they don't know what they what they're doing within the rules anyway. Right. Right. It's like I could go play golf somewhere and have somebody tell me, oh, you just got a penalty for that. I wouldn't know any better. Right. Because I mean who studies the golf rules or or pays attention to most of that. But um, I think a lot of our competitors are like that. Are they are they misled by the people they've been shooting with for a while that tell them whatever they've been doing wrong, you know, and treat it as gospel.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

So well, that's the thing, is a lot of times there's intentional. There's two types of club culture, right? There's the not intentional incident. Ignorant company. Not intentional. Where they had one guy who took a RO class 20 years ago and he's the rules expert. Right. 20 years ago. And everyone just does what that guy says.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Well, that rules knowledge is eroded and morphed and changed.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Right. He hasn't kept up on the rules. And he's like the only certified, remotely nearly certified RO in the whole club. And then they have an RO class and they realize they've been doing it wrong. And the new ROs hopefully help correct the mess. And then there's the clubs who they know they're doing it wrong and they do it intentionally, don't follow the USPSA rules. And to me, those are the more egregious ones because people who do want to follow the rules go and try to do things right and get chastised, basically, and get frustrated and don't go back. So then we just have this little microenvironment of people who don't want to follow the rules, yet they're saying they are USPSA matches, and they aren't. And that's worse to me.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah, it's the difference between innocent ignorance and willful ignorance. Yeah. And it's, you know, we're this this place is just being willfully ignorant of what they need to do. If if they can respond to his thing like this is a USPSA rule, and they're like, oh, we don't do it, don't shoot USPSA. Then they think they're following the rules, and they're obviously they obviously know that they're doing it wrong, or they're or they're really ignorant of anything they have to do. So um it's a very aggravating situation when when that happens, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:44

Well, especially yeah, especially when we have people who are trying to do it right. And see the thing is like everyone thinks NRI can wave a magic wand and fix club culture. The reality is, yeah, we wish to, but we can't because it takes the people at the club doing it. And it, you know, I I uh applaud the people who step up and try to change it, but I also know their frustration of being told, well, you know, we don't want to follow the rules because it might upset some of our older members, or or you know, we can't force the rules because it upsets these people or whatever, and or they get bullied to not follow the rules, right? And so um I appreciate the situation they're in, and I applaud them for trying.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

And I also feel very sad for them because they are trying to do it right, and they're stuck in a situation where they can't change things. Um, that being said, you know, hopefully they live in an area where there's other clubs, right? And they can just choose not to shoot at that club.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah, and then if you are in a club, if you're in this situation, you're being faced with club culture, see if you can find others that are like-minded individuals to yourself. Um then because they may think they're all alone too, and you may find that you know half the club is trying to do the right thing. You've just got a core group that is bent on going the wrong way, and maybe you know, if enough of you can join together, you can um hold sway and get things headed in the right direction. It's gonna be a lot of work, it's not gonna happen overnight, but you might be able to change things.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

And that minimum squad with the people who want to follow the rules to at least have a better sh match day experience.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Right, exactly. And you know, and if if they haven't had an RO class in a while, get on the books and get an RO class. Um, get one scheduled, get one in there. That will help. Um you may not, you may still have that same core group that's bound to determine the not follow the rules. Okay, but the more people that are there and are going to follow the rules will eventually you'll win, you know, then you'll be following most of the rules, and eventually they'll get to you're following all the rules, um, and you're doing it right. So it's gonna take work, and if this really is a grassroots thing, we can't do it. We don't have uh we we had somebody earlier this year um basically say that NROI should be traveling the country and going to every single club match at least once a year. Um there's three of us. There's no way. Um it just it just can't happen. And um that's that that you know, even if we had all the instructors helping, um, even if we had all the RMs, all 50-something RMs doing it, it's I don't think we could get to every club in the nation every year. Um it's that's a lot of time and a lot of travel and a lot of expense. So that isn't happening.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

And also, um just because the local clubs have said this to me, they're like, oh crap, Jody registered for the match. I guess we have to follow the rules. Exactly. I think they they were joking, but they do uh pay extra attention to stage designs and stuff when they see me coming. So who says that if we were just to appear at one match a year, that it would be indicative of what goes on the whole year. Yeah. And my love clubs, they're they all do uh you know, they do their best and they actually do decent, they actually do good jobs at their matches. But um this was a few years ago when they told me this before I taught some RO classes and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

So yeah. Well, I've heard the same thing showing up at various and tundra other clubs just because people it's just because it's funny.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Um, I mean, we've had people at major matches wanting to want to find a range master because he was making them do the the rules required things on the stages. Yeah. I mean that's ridiculous. So but it's just aggravating. It's like I feel like the coach on uh oh shoot, I can't remember the name of that show. Anyway, uh always kicking the trash can saying embarrassing or aggravating or something like that. Yeah, uh letter Kenny. Yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

Oh, there you go, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

But but I I mean I do have to say since we revamped the RO classes, and CRO class, since we started the blog, since we started the podcast, um, I do think in general, overall our ROs are more acknowledgeable. And part of it is because the ones are the the already certified folks are engaging with the blog and the podcast. Um, I think they're more willing to ask questions. I think we are doing a good job of you know teaching people to RO, but also, you know, explain the expectations we expect for our ROs. You're not just timer and tablet holders. You're supposed to be, you know, leaders, good examples. Um, and I think in general, I have seen a change in our RO since we started doing all this, which makes me feel great, good because there's times where you know, sometimes you're like, are we actually making a difference? And I think we are. Um it's just that we probably don't have, we're just not reaching all the nooks and crannies yet. Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Yeah, you know, and you hear it when you go to classes. Um I, you know, I taught the class in Albuquerque. Um, you know, a lot of the students were already familiar with the blog, with the podcast. Um, you know, they they were they were learning, they were following and learning, and they were, you know, they were ready to go. There were a few people that didn't know about it, but you know, Sunday morning one of them walked up to me and said, All right, I started listening to the podcast last night. I started in the middle because I didn't want to go all the way back to the beginning. And she basically spent her evening listening to the podcast. Um, and you know, it's that that's there's a lot of really great stuff there. So, you know, we are getting a lot of the information out there. Um, and way, way more information than when any of us first became an RO. Um, so it's it's it's the problem is not a lack of information problem. The problem is, I don't know, human nature, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Gun bro culture, I don't know. There's always gonna be the range of I'm gonna say students. You got the overachiever students, you got the ones who do the bare minimum, and then you got the ones who maybe look at the rule book once a year when they do their exam.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

And and it's uh I mean, anytime you teach anything, that's it, you know, you're not gonna have a all A students, right? Right. And I mean, I just think the fact that we're making better inroads is great. I mean, hell, before we start doing all this stuff, the only time you got NROI stuff was the magazine every other month.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Yep. Right. So Or you went to Nationals and got to sit around with or yeah, or you worked matches. You know, DNRI and some of the instructors and yeah, you know, and uh, you know, just just shooting the ball and talking and you you know get some good information that way. But that was a slow, hard way to get stuff.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Nationals, aka family reunion, yeah. Um but yeah, um I just think you know, we have a ton of stuff out there, it's just a matter of whether people choose to seek it out, right? But I do think a lot of people more and more people are seeking it out. And um heck, we even have some international audience.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Yes, we do. So waiting for that first podcast listener in Antarctica.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

So I don't think they're a region of input. Um traveling out of South Africa though. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So in fact, there's a I think there's a South African uh he was in their they call it SA South Africa, I ruined or something like that. Anyway, he was one of their movers and shakers there. I think he's moving to the states. So he might be a good source for IPSC stuff. Um I don't know if he's here yet, but uh my friend down there told me about it the other day. So see what happens. But yeah, there's some podcast listeners all over the place. So yep.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Yeah, it's it's pretty interesting. We're we're on every continent except Antarctica.

SPEAKER_03 55:26

So well, I imagine the uh USPSA or Ipsic presence there is probably pretty minimal since no one lives there.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Yeah. Yep. All right. Do we have anything else we want to go over before we tie the ribbons on this one and call it a night?

SPEAKER_04 55:46

I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yodi.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

Uh um, I had something. Oh, just so you know, the current question, the April question of the month deals with 1155. So since we talked about it today, go check out the question on the blog and cast your vote.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

And I say the results were posted for the plate thing, which was good.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Yeah, on Facebook, they were on the blog Thursday. I just forgot.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

I gotta put the new question up on Facebook to Yeah, that that particular plate has been problematic in a couple of matches, so can't use them. Not the right style, it's not legal for that. It's legal for shotgun. And our rifle, I guess, if you're gonna use it for that, but it's not legal for handguns.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

Yeah, it does not meet the criteria. So if you don't know what we're talking about, go check out the blog.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Because there's even a picture. Yeah, in ROI.org. It was last month question of the month, and there was an article one this week or last week. Last week.

SPEAKER_04 57:03

Yeah. Um April 2nd. With the answer.

Send Us Your Rules Questions

SPEAKER_01 57:07

So already. Yeah, we had something else on April 1st. So all right. Yep. All right. With that, again, folks, remember if you uh reach out with your questions, comments, whatever rules at uspsa.org, we're happy to get your email. Uh, your question might even make it on the podcast. Actually, pretty good chance it'll make it on the podcast. Um, we do generally change the names to protect the guilty and the innocent. Um, and uh but we will get you an answer. Um, and then may use your question on the podcast. So thanks to you both, and we'll see everybody again in two weeks. Good night, all.

SPEAKER_04 57:58

Night.

Find Your Next RO Class

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Good night. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade the chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NROI seminars under the NROI tab at USBSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NROI seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRI tab at USBSA.org.