Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:31

All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without reinforcements from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Role discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaw of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules could be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 95, recorded in early March 2026. Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the NROI podcast. I'm Kevin Emmel, and as usual are my two co-conspirators, uh Troy McManus. Good evening, Perry. Good evening. And Jody Human. Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Good evening.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Alrighty. Well, we're back for another one. If y'all missed it, we went over the rules changes in the last episode. So if you're curious about that, roll back. Hopefully by now you've had a chance to shoot a match under the new rules and realize it's not that big of changes. So anyway, uh, anybody got any announcements?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I do.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Go ahead.

Nationals Slots And Elitism Debate

SPEAKER_01 1:43

I have a couple of things I want to talk about if they're not exactly announcements. So the first one is the USPSA announced that uh membership numbers are required, right? Yes. So there's been all kinds of outcry on social media about that, with people just coming up with most absolutely ridiculous reasons for it. What it's going to do, what it's not going to do. Um, is it going to require everybody to be a member at a level one or local mass? And the answer to that is no. The point is, if you have a member number, you're required, you're required to provide it, right? And that comes stems from baggeries of the new classification system. Uh, people not putting member numbers in because they didn't want to move up or they did want to move up depending on the results of their classifier, et cetera. So the board decided they were going to try to stop that gaming move and and require member numbers. Uh, if you are not a member or you have people that show up that aren't members, they do not have to join USPSA to shoot. So, first first misconception. Second misconception, this is nothing but a money grab. Everybody that attends a USPSA match essentially pays an activity fee to USPSA, member or not. Okay. So if you got a hundred guys shooting your match, you owe USPSA what, a buck fifty a person or something, two dollars with a classifier. I don't know the number, but you still owe them. Every that that amount for every competitor you had in the match, putting a member number in does not change a thing. Okay. Doesn't change anything. The the fee is the same. And then the other thing is that it's, you know, uh putting more burden on the club, et cetera, et cetera. But it comes down to doing things right, right? So put your member number in. Um, I understand that you know there's some issues with the with the classification system that people don't like. They don't like the fact that everything that they shoot counts, right? I get it. If you're trying to move up and you shoot a bad classifier, then it's gonna not, it's gonna prevent you from moving up as fast as you want to move up. If you're not trying to move up, and basically you're sandbagging, well then that comes down to cheating, actually. So, you know, get a little bit of self-respect and shoot what you got, you know, take what you earned. So there are problems with it, I'm sure, that you know, it'll be pointed out for years with the new classification system. If you feel the need to move down, then there's always the petition process where you can show that you don't shoot at that same level anymore, and you petition to be moved down a classification or two, and USPSA will usually accommodate that. So you can't move up, can't move up by request, but you can certainly move down. You got to jump through a couple of hoops to do it, but you can surely do it, right? So shoot your classifiers, put your member number in, uh, quit spreading rumors that it's nothing but a money grab or that everybody's got to be a member. Um, that's not what the announcement said, and that's not how the system works. Uh, second issue. Um, we published a number of people that had entered pre-match for Nationals, for RaceCon Nationals. Again, social media outcry. Oh my God, look at all the ABCD members in here. Why are they in here? This should be nothing but GMs. Well, you don't have enough GMs in the country to fill that match, for one thing, that are willing to go shoot it. Right? And 90%, I would bet 90% at least of our membership activity fees come from those level shooters. Yep. Everybody from the new members up to A-class and even M class, right? They're the ones that are putting the money in and activity fees. They're the ones that are putting the work in building matches. Those are the ones that are putting to work in RO and if you won a slot because you won B class at your area championship, you have just as much right to go compete in the nationals as anybody else, right? That's why we have a classification system. It's not only for the elite, okay? It's not only for the top shooters. So, man, just get over that, okay? Because that's the most elitist attitude I've ever heard. And this sport has never been that way. Everybody is welcome to shoot. The B-class national champion is just as happy to be the B class national champion as the overall champion is to be overall champion. So, you know, it's supposed to be a fun sport. It shouldn't have all this division and and elitism built into it, right? Nothing against master shooters, VM shooters, anything like that, but you know, it's just not for, it's not going to be exclusive to that. Okay. The best of the best are going to be competing against one another. The A-class guys are going to be competing against one another. That's what you don't understand about that system. And that's the beauty of the system is you shoot your class level and you win that, but then you've accomplished something, right? Yep. If you're a GM shooter and you don't win high overall, oh well, maybe a little more practice, maybe a little more something. I don't know what to tell you. But, you know, everybody has a chance to go shoot it. And so everybody that's in there right now has an earned slot, right? Because that was pre-registration for earned slots. And then as time passes, they'll get more people that enter as open entries. And if they want to come and shoot a national championship, well, more power to them. Not everybody that that gets an earned slot uh wins their division, right? Sometimes it's the guys that just get in there and they've been working hard over the rest of the year and they they managed to win their class or whatever. So there's no telling who's gonna win what, because I mean, as everybody knows, it's a very dynamic sport. The scoring system has its uh has its own idiosyncrasies where you don't have to finish first in every stage to win the match. You could finish second or third as long as you maintain the high percentage up there and you could win the whole thing, right? Consistency pays. Right. So it just doesn't matter, you know. I mean, that that GM card, okay, that's great. You did great. You you shot well, you practiced hard, but that still doesn't give you the right to just say this should be nothing but us. Okay. So anyway. That's all I had. Ramped over.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Well, I mean, when I was uh just joined, I joined in 2010. I shot our area match in 2011. I won second lady in production, and believe me, I was towards the bottom. There wasn't as many lady shooters back then. Um, and the next year I earned a slot to nationals. I thought it was a prank phone call because at that time they called and told you you won a slot. Um I went to nationals and I won second place in D-class production. The only time I'm ever gonna win a trophy at Nationals, but I have it the little plaque hanging on my wall here, you know. But um I mean, that's the thing I I like about USPSA is that you compete against people who are at your same classification level and you can go to big matches and win. I mean, you know, if you're worried about the prize table, that's still order of finish, right? The A-class guy who wins A-class is not gonna go before the all the people who finished above him.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Um but it's that's what makes our sport unique.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Right. But the A-class guy's gonna get a trophy.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Oh, yeah, he's gonna get a trophy. I could go home with a gun, but he's gonna get a trophy.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

I have a similar story because in '92, when I had been shooting for a couple of years and wasn't very good, I was D-class. Yeah, and I won D class at the Area 4 championship, right? Well, at that time, they didn't call you, they just handed you the slot, right? They handed you the invitation paperwork. And uh, they also handed me a gun. I was like, all right, cool. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to Nashville. So I'll do my slot, I pay my entry fee and go to NASA's. Well, somewhere in between there, they said, Oh, you want D class at Area Four, you're C class now.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

So I go to Nashville's and get my ass handed to me. But I had the best time ever, right? Yeah. And that just solidified my desire to shoot nationals, to work nationals, to contribute more to the organization because everybody was nice. It was a little different in the in the old days, you know, back when we had wood burning 1911s and not them fancy guns now.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

But um, how many people were at that nationals? Your family.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

There's a couple hundred.

unknown 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

It's it was spread out over five days. You might have shoot two stages a day, because I think they had 12 stages. Um, and it was a really weird schedule. I mean, it was really spread out, but they had a huge vendor area with a lot of stuff being sold there, and they had, you know, other things to do.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

But you do spend the whole day on the range to shoot them two stages. But uh, but they had a a big uh dress banquet in town in Quincy, Illinois. And uh, you know, everything was everything was nice and did it right. So, I mean, the point is, you know, it's anybody can win something and end up going to Nationals, and and how you do when you get there is completely up to you. But you earn that spot, right? And if you just decide you want to go and there's an opening and you can go and can afford it and go shooting all more power to you, go do it. You never know what you're gonna come out. Well, it's that just that whole idea just comes under the just freaking stop it thing for me.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Well, it's not the first time it's been talked about.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

No, but I mean consider this consider they have a national that all they do is invite GN shooters, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:19

So how many?

SPEAKER_01 12:23

A hundred, two hundred? Um, out of those two hundred, how many are actually gonna come and compete? Because that's gonna be another three to four days out of whatever they're doing, right? And if they figure that they can't win it, then why would they go? You still have to produce a national championship, which entails all of the other uh expenses that you have for any other national championship. It adds a third one if they do some sort of invitation or whatever, it adds a third uh match to the year, right? So you gotta get staff, right? Staff is our major expense for any nationals. Yeah, so you gotta get staff, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. What kind of entry fee do you think you're looking at? I mean, this year it's$425, and there's probably gonna be almost 500 something people in it. So, you know, what entry fee are you willing to pay to go and not win that match? Because so and so's going, and you know he's gonna be the shoe man champion or whatever, right? So it's just logistically, it's a terrible idea. I mean, if you could have it and and everybody showed up and and it was free, yeah, to to put it on, that might be something, but you know, I don't think you could do it. I don't think it's I don't think it's logistically feasible, and I don't think you could get the staff to do it. And and what are you gonna do with staff? You're gonna let them shoot for score? Because then that kills your whole we're gonna invite a bunch of GMs to shoot idea. And our rules don't allow you to have well, you could have two separate matches, I guess, but that's not great. That's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So anyway, although we know staff prefer to shoot if they can. Yeah, it's gonna go if you're gonna spend all that time and money to go to go work a match and burn all that leave if you're still employed, um you're gonna want to actually usually want to actually shoot. And um, you know, I I worked 20-something nationals before I got to shoot one because we back then the policy was staff didn't shoot.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

And for many, many years. And then we finally brought the staff shooting back, and that's made work in nationals a whole lot more fun.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah. It's also enabled us to get more staff.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So staff apps filled really quick.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, we used to struggle to fill staff because people are like, why would I want to do that? I don't even get to shoot. You know, I get to watch everybody else have fun. And you know, now that we're allowing staff to shoot, the what we were full in four days, five days this year for staff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it doesn't look like that. And in fact, we're a little overstaffed, but there's always some attrition. So in fact, I've lost uh two people so far already. And I've been threatening if if they don't put that additional information for them in, I'm gonna lose some more.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

And and don't email Troy asking, did I put it in?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, do not email me asking.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

If you go and try to put it in, it tells you you have nothing to put in.

Top 20 Lists And Goals

SPEAKER_01 15:42

You've you've done already. Right. Yeah, means and if you tell me I put it in three times, but this is the only time I got a uh acknowledgement, then that's the one that worked, right? Some of those other two times, some something you did wasn't working because it always works. You do have to be logged in under your ID for it to be able to do that. You can't log in as your wife's ID or be logged in under your husband's ID and say this doesn't work, this doesn't work, this doesn't work. It will not work. You have to log in yourself because that's where it's taking that information from. But yeah, and it's you know, it's not hard to do. So I think I've got two people not in yet for a race gun. So I like I said, if if I email you directly and say I don't have an additional information for them, then I don't have yours, right? If I email the whole group and say, hey, this is a reminder, then if you think you did it, then that that's fine. But when you start getting individual emails, uh, you know, it's that that last one was addressed to you too.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

So um since we're talking about you know competing against your peers and da-da-da. I wonder how many people still know that the top 20 lists still exist.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

So if you go to uspsa.org slash top 2020, it lists the top 20 people in each division and class. So you'll see the top 20 GMs and karayoptics, the top 20 D class and the karioptics. Um I remember like when I was getting close to breaking out a D class, I'd see GoPro screen cap my name on that list. But you know, it's interesting to see because now we have uh some GMs that are over 100%. Um but it's interesting to see the you know, some of the divisions, the top 20 are all like pretty close and uh points wise or percent wise. Um some of the other divisions like revolver, they're a little more spread out. Um if you guys are ever curious about who the top shooters are in your division in your class, that's where you go.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Yeah, it's always a good goal to get yourself on that top 20 list.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

And then hopefully not, you know, move up. Well, I think that's from all the the factors we've adjusted.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

The new math yeah I blame the new math.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

It's it's interesting the the 100% guy always just sticks out right there.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Yeah, yeah, there's adjustables. Alrighty. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Anything else to go over before we dive into the mailbag?

SPEAKER_01 18:57

I don't see me on here. You probably don't see me either.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah, I'm I'm kind of right in the middle of the C class classification right now.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

So as I recall, I made the L10 top 20 list for like one month way back when and then I shot some really bad classifiers and because I was trying to push that little extra bit to make A class. Or actually that was probably when I was in C class and uh moved up to B class. And so yeah, it's uh some of that is uh is that a rolling percentage recalculated every time, every every day, Jody? Or only things definitely whenever the classification because it used to only be you know the once a month, so you were king for a month.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah. So I note uh if you're looking at limited 10, since you mentioned that in masterclass, Mike Boyt's still like second. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Um yeah. I'm speaking some names that have been around for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Yeah. Yeah, I I'm sure revolver and single stack are similar.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Anyway, not so much single stack, but certainly revolver. I'm sure Jerry and Michael Poggy are up on top on that one. On Revolver.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Uh Jerry is well, they're doing alphabetical. He's tied for second place.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Uh Michael Poggy's down further, though.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Really? Who's number one?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Rich Wolf.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Ah, look at Johnny Brister at 100.

unknown 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

And Taryn Butler at 100. I mean, I haven't seen Johnny in a couple years shooting. No. Not certainly not shooting revolver. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

I haven't seen Terrence shoot revolvers since Robbie Latham was in there at 99.4. Yeah. I've seen Robbie shoot revolver. All right.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

I don't think we ought to read the top 20 lists on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Well, you know, it's a walk down memory lane.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Um listenership drops.

PCC Drums Allowed But Risky

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah. Alrighty. Um, so yeah, if you go find yourself on the top 20 list, enjoy that. Screenshot it, frame it, put it on the wall. Or it on Facebook. There you go, put it on Facebook. All righty. Um so we'll dive in the mailbag here. Um, got an email from uh from some folks and said, I didn't see it specifically in the rules, so I wanted to ask. My wife is waiting on a procedure for some shoulder neck pain, and she wants to shoot PCC since it's less reloading and easier on her right now. Instead of waiting and doing the rehab, she wants to do something. My question she's running a JP and has been using standard Glock magazines. Can we buy one of the Round drum magazines and use that so she ensures she doesn't have to reload in like except between stages, which is where I suspect I'll have to reload her magazine anyway. Anyway, yes, we will. Thanks for taking the time, etc. etc. etc. Um, just wanted to be sure we're still within the rules.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, I think I answered this and I told him. I mean, if you look at the PCC rules, it doesn't say anywhere where it prohibits drums.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Um, but there's a reason we don't see a lot of drums in PCC is because they usually are have jamming issues.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

So that's why people get the big, long, long mags. Um, because those seem to run a little more reliably.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah. Yeah, and some of the extensions that are made that go on like the if you're using Glock mags, go on the the 32 round Glock mag or 30 round, whatever it is. The 33. Yeah. There's some extensions that go right onto that. You come with a an addition, a different spring. And I have one of those, and it it runs like a top. Um, no problem at all. So uh know a lot of people that use those. They ain't cheap, but uh and if you when you fill them full and stick them in your pants pocket, you better have a good belt because they're heavy.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

But well, the drums are also harder to stick in your pocket.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah, they're hard to carry around. You know, the and you you know it's uh interesting, even in multigun, you don't see a ton of drums. And when you do, they're the really high-end expensive ones because those work.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

But I I have years and years ago, I bought it, you know, way before our magazine ban here. I do have a nine millimeter drop glock drum, but um it's not like a super expensive one, so I haven't even tried using it.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Like uh it's these these stick mags work perfectly. Why do I want to mess with that?

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah. And so yeah, if you want something to fool with, I just I don't think I'd do the math with it.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

But I've seen an awful lot of those things just tossed in trash cans with the early you know the thing, nice thing about our support, right? Usually when you if there's this, you know, piece of ooh gear out there and you don't see anyone using it, there's usually a reason. Right. Yeah. So that's why you don't see a lot of drums because they don't work. Um I know I have some of the surefire like 16 rounders or whatever mags from AR. And a lot of people say they can't get those to work. Mine works great.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

I have a 60 and a 100 and they both run just fine.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah. It's all about your OAL. But anyway, yeah. Um you know, so it's like sometimes when there's these newfangled things. So like back when they started allowing uh weapon lights in production and carry optics, right? Next thing you know, you see all these guys, they have the the milled brass block with the little keychain light in it, right? Which was considered a light on their gun. And then they had the thumb rest, and then they had all those, all these gizmos on their gun. That lasts about one nationals. Yeah. And then I never saw it again. Because I think one, they started having gun issues. Like you can put too much stuff on a Glock and make it not run.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Oh, yeah. I I forgot who it was, but the when we started a lot of those, somebody showed up at Nationals with like a surefire flashlight poured full of lead as a and their gun wouldn't run. And everybody kept in his squad kept telling him, take that stupid weight off and it'll run just fine. And hey, lo and behold, took the stupid weight off and it ran just fine. You know, these guns are engineers for something, and you screw with it, you break it.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah. So usually when you don't see something, either it's not allowed in the rules, or it is allowed in the rules, but people have messed with it enough to realize it's not making things better or it causes malfunctions, or there's a reason it gets relegated to the closet, you don't see it again.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Exactly. It was a really good idea for 30 seconds.

Berm Height Guidance And Ballistic Dirt

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yeah. Yep. Yep. All right, moving on. Um, we're planning some improvements to our local range in order to bid for sanctioned matches. Yay, go for it. I've been asked about berm height. I seem to recall the NRA range book specified 20 feet high for the back and 12 feet for the sides. Is that also a USPSA recommendation? And we don't really, as far as I know, have um range recommendations. I know the people I have talked to, I have referred them to the NRA.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Either of you have different experience?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

No, that's what we do with all of them. We we don't, I mean, USPSA's position is if you consider it safe to shoot and you set your targets right, then it's safe to shoot. But if you do look at the NRA recommendations, uh backstop berms 12 to 20 feet high. So 12 feet is their man for like pistol ranges, and 20 for rifle is kind of their thing. Uh four feet wide at the top, obviously. And then if you got a four foot wide berm at the top, which a lot of them aren't, right? They're just pretty pointy. So if you got that narrow part at the top, you're not stopping a bullet if it hits right there. Um they also erode a lot faster. Yeah. And I think it's about three to one. So 20 feet high on the bot on the top is 60 feet wide on the bottom. That's a lot of real estate you're eating up for a 20-foot berm for a pistol bait, right? Yeah. I mean, depending on your dirt guide and how they do it and everything else. They also recommend that you don't use rocks or concrete. Right?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

So yeah, but you can make the you a lot of people can, you know, you can make the core of that berm out of riprap, fill, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But there's got to be a good healthy layer of dirt over the top. As we learned in Vegas. Ballistic dirt. Yeah, that first year in Vegas when we had rich haze going every wind's direction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Got to be ballistic dirt. Yeah, that's well, it's not only the the bullets hit ricochet, it's the rocks that fly too. Yeah. I mean, there was countless number of people with a broken back glass with a rock sitting on the deck, the back deck of the car.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

You know, so it's like not a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Nancy broke two windows. Was that two different years or two different matches at the same year?

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

But you know, here's a tip. Here's a pro tip for all of you. If you go to a range that has a lot of rocks in the berm, maybe don't park so close.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Well, park as far away as you freaking can.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah. Yep. That got really close when it well that you know in Vegas, everybody was doing that so they could sit in their car with air conditioning on between squats. Sure. But uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah, it sucks when you have you have it on your rental car.

Steel Challenge Start Commands And Reshoots

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. If you are gonna do that, be sure you buy the rental car insurance. Um, or if your insurance covers it, but make sure your insurance covers it. Okay. In my last level one steel challenge match, I had the RO give me this command in quotes, are you ready? Stand by, wait, beat. I hesitated, then drew my gun and shot the string. Would I have been able to contest that string for a reshoot? Note that they literally said the word wait. It wasn't just a long pause until the beep. Thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Um, I answered that one. And so if you draw your gun, you've accepted the conditions as they are, and that's your attempt at the stage, right? So there's no recourse for that. Yep. If you don't draw your gun, then the RO has to ascertain why you didn't go at the start signal, and it's not mandatory, right? So there's several reasons why you might not respond to this to the start signal. Maybe you didn't hear it. Uh maybe it was too fast, right? Are you ready? Stand by beat, right? Finger slipped off, whatever. You don't have to draw. You can just stand there and say, What was that? Right. And then the RO's got to start over at Are You Ready? Um, a lot of times people they try to time it out where they're doing a full four seconds or so, right? And that feels like forever when you're standing there, right? So I have had I have seen competitors turn to the RO, like, when are you gonna set the timer off? And then of course they hit the button. So usually at that point, you wouldn't necessarily have to draw either because you were looking at it and you weren't obviously in the well in the start position you wanted to be in.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Um they've kind of interfered with you.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Right. So if you're you know, at that point, if if you don't if they say wait and then Well, what does wait mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Does that mean wait for the buzzer? Or wait a second, somebody just stepped onto the rink.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

They didn't explain that to me, so I don't know what that's but yeah, you don't have to go. But if you do go, then you accepted it, right? So, and making your attempt is not firing a shot, it's actually drawing a gun.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

So no recourse for that. Alrighty.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

If her written stage briefing states handgun is unloaded and lying flat, unpropped on the table with trigger guard over the mark, but doesn't say anything about magazines, can you also place a magazine on the tabletop as well? No. Nope. As the rule says, unless otherwise specified, your magazines and gun reloading devices have to be in on your belt. Right. Yeah. Depending on what division you're shooting. If you're ATC, a lot of people just stick them in pockets.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

But but if it does say, and let me go off on a little tangent here, because one of the rule changes that came about last year was uh was it last year or is it this year? That if you if they specify all the mags on the means necessary, that was the trip. Yeah, you can carry them in any means necessary, which means if you have a magnet, you can stick two on a magnet. You can put them in your pockets, you can keep them in your hand. You cannot still can't put them in your mouth.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Um you want me to read the rules that we're talking about here? Yeah. So the one that pertains to the original question, 524. During the course of fire, unless stipulated otherwise in the written stage briefing, spare ammunition magazines andor speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pockets and retrieve and use them. And then the one we edited was 5241. When stipulations in the written stage briefing require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal and prohibit the use of pockets and retention devices during the course of fire, retrieving and carrying them and using them from the hand is allowed. When the WSB doesn't require the use of retention devices or pockets, the competitor can use whatever means on their person to carry magazines or speed loading devices, including multiple magazines in a pouch or on a magnet. Which doesn't make sense. Uh magazines that may never be held at or carried in the mouth during so result in the zero first stage because if the WSB doesn't require the use of potential devices or pockets. Oh, does it oh I see what it's saying? Never mind. I was at when the WSB.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Oh, yeah. Okay. Let's clear that up. Because if you look at the, you know, they look like they can uh conflict. And I tried to get something put in there that sort of clarified that, but it didn't make the final pass through the board. So uh but that rule does supersede the one that says anywhere else that they have to be singly held and sort of magnets, etc.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Okay, I think we had we had proposed some language of um something about it doesn't violate this the the vision requirements.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

The vision requirement, yeah. But for some reason it didn't go.

Holster Rules And Muddy Outer Limits

SPEAKER_02 34:56

So all right. Okay, and then we got a question. Uh, why is USPS why is USPSA rule regarding holsters not part of the SCSA rules regarding holsters? And the specific rule they said 5273, it's actually 5272, at least in the new rule book, a holster with the muzzle of the handgun parting further than three feet from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed. And that is that is not in the steel challenge book. It's not really been a problem that I'm aware of, but no.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Um and I mean not everything that's in the USPSA rules is in the steel challenge book, obviously. Uh mostly because some of it hasn't come up. Um, we always get a little bit of uh pushback when we're trying to match rules because some of it doesn't the steel challenge folks don't think that it should apply to them. And you know, sometimes that's true. Um but this particular rule, like Kevin said, is never seemed to be an issue. You don't see too many people using a an FBI can't holster for a steel challenge match simply because the draw is typically straight down to the gun, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Percentage guns. So it's a matter of kinetics and a matter of the way that people carry their guns and steel challenge and and all that stuff. It's just like in USPSA, we let you shoot from concealment and steel challenge, we don't, right?

unknown 36:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Because that's supposed to be a super speed kind of draw and shoot kind of thing, and it just doesn't make sense to it's not the same game, it doesn't make sense to do concealment for steel challenge. So okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Um okay. I experienced a situation a couple months ago. Um it had been raining heavily for a day or so prior to this match, not actively raining at the time of the match. The last stage for my squad was outer limits, so this is still a challenge match. Um, the shooters' boxes were a mixture of sod, mud, and water, and that was the result of several squads shooting the stage before we did. Two of the competitors who shot prior to my turn had significant difficulty transitioning between the two shooters' boxes. One competitor nearly fell to the ground on two strings, sliding on the money ground. When it was my turn to compete, I asked the RO if I could not use the shooter's boxes and use the undisturbed ground immediately behind the shooter's boxes. He said that if I did, I'd be given a penalty seconds for each string in which I didn't use the designated shooting boxes. I stated that shooting these boxes with the required movement was clearly unsafe. He insisted that if I chose to engage targets outside of the shooting boxes, I would be levied a penalty, which I believe he said was five seconds for each penalty. I went ahead and used the designated shooters' boxes, but did so with great care and slid a little, but not so much as to have lost control. This was a level one club match, nothing at stake, other than bragging rights. What is NRI's ruling in this kind of situation? To me, clearly, less than ideal safe conditions at the shooting boxes and outer limits. In my opinion, the preceding squads would have opted to shoot behind the designated shooting boxes or rearrange the boxes behind the very muddy, slippery areas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Well mess, literally.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah. I explained to him there's steps you can take. You can add material to the boxes, or worse comes to worst, you could move the box, but then you gotta move the rest of the stage and make sure it's all right again, right? Yeah, that's kind of an extreme measure. Um, but I mean, wood chips, dirt, sand, gravel, whatever you could throw in there to take care of it, but you can't just shoot from behind the box. You can't just shoot from in front of the box. Um because that box is there for a reason, right? It defines a shooting area. And not that the distance shooting from behind me really make a make that big a difference, but I mean it it is what it is. So you gotta shoot. If you think it's unsafe, you don't have to shoot. Request the race master to to make something, you know, fix it. Yeah. Um, if they can't fix it, then that's a problem. But there's very few ranges I've been to lately that don't have some sort of material they could put down, even if it's just some mulch or something they had laying around, right? Yeah. Uh to take care of that kind of a problem. And I mean, normally for steel challenge, that's the only stage that requires any movement at all. So I mean it wouldn't be a hardship to put a little bit of material down in that one. No, the others you could just stand still in the mud and not have to worry about it.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

I've done that plenty of times.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Wear the big boots, the tall boots.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yeah, you know, to him and some of this stuff is like first off, you know, it was a level one match. I don't care. It's still a still challenge match, they're still running under the rules, right? Um preceding squads should have opted to shoot behind a designated shooter's boxes. They can't. They can't just do that, right? And you can't rearrange the boxes without rearranging the stage. So, you know, it's just a matter of of getting it right.

Classifier Setup No Published Tolerances

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yeah, and you know, that's you know, for anybody that is hosting matches, if you end up in a situation um where you're getting, you know, you're you can tell you're gonna turn the ground in the mud, well, then have something on hand to fill that in. If you're shooting on snow and you can tell that after a few shooters, those boxes are gonna be skating rinks because people are gonna pack the snow down into ice. Um, or I mean, I even shot a steel challenge once match once in freezing rain, um, which was challenging. Um, you know, you got to have something on hand, you know, some sand or gravel, something to where you can, you know, make it safe and make it equitable for everybody. Because, you know, if you think about it, the first few squads that shot that match, they had a definite advantage over the people that came along later and were you know fighting the mud. So you're you you know, we people like to throw around competitive equity. Well, there you go. So all right. Um we've gotten some questions about classifier tolerances. Um and you can always tell when we're getting questions from people with an engineering background, um, because they they want tolerances, you know, plus or minus an inch, or you know, what's the tolerance? And you know, we we try to get them as close as we can. I don't know that we actually publish any specific, you know, plus or minus three-quarters of an inch type standards.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

No, we don't. We do allow you to lower height as long as it's uniformly done to uh correct for a short backstop or some problem like that, right? So if your targets are too high and you're gonna put rounds outside your range, you can drop them all uh the same amount, and then as long as it's safe to shoot, that's fine. Um I mean nobody gets them dead nuts on 12 feet, right? Especially when you got somebody setting stages up that are wanting to go hurry up and get done that evening and go have a beer and a steak or whatever, or get to shooting in the morning if they're setting up in the morning. I mean, we don't publish any tolerances because as everybody knows, tolerances tend to expand, right? Yep. So if two inches are good, then four inches is probably not that bad. It's just another two inches, right? And then pretty soon you're six inches off, and then pretty soon you're eight inches off. So uh we don't publish, you know, or state that we have any tolerances. The general understanding is that you know, if it's off an inch or so, it's really not gonna make that big a difference. I mean, that's pretty tight, right? You should try to get them exact because that way it makes the classification system actually work as designed. Everybody's shooting the same state.

SPEAKER_04 43:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Is that real life? Absolutely not. But we're not gonna tell you that you can have a four-inch variation in it because then you're gonna have a four inch variation somewhere else where it really does make a difference, right? Right. So there are no tolerances for that. You can lower the height for safety reasons of the target, but other than that, no. And you can't swap many poppers for big poppers and vice versa.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

So uh But you know, it doesn't have to be down to the you know a millionth of an inch either.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Just set 'em up, do your measurements, you know, if everything looks good, uniform, consistent, then you're probably in good shape. Right?

Gen 6 Glock Grip Mod Not Legal

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Alrighty. Um so I guess this one kind of becomes a two-parter. First part would be what's the status of the Gen 6 Glocks and the production list?

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Oh, everything's been added.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Okay. Alrighty. Um, so this question is I have a Gen 6 Glock 17 with a new frame integrated beaver tail. However, I have large hands and still get significant slide bite, even with this beaver tail. I'd like to add a very small amount of epoxy putty underneath the beaver tail to push the webbing of my hand down enough, roughly one to three millimeters, that slide bite does not occur. Slide bite sucks. I hate that. Um, this should be very small change that doesn't significantly alter the original design. Would this grip frame modification be legal for USPSA carry optics division?

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Um, no. Because you're essentially adding material to create a beaver tail or create more of a beaver tail. Um, I don't think the Gen 6s have uh interchangeable backstraps.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

No, they do. They did it differently.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah. But the ones that have interchangeable backstraps, you can change those out. Um we're trying to decide right now what to do with aftermarket backstraps and and clip-on beaver tails and stuff like that. Um is it that big a deal competitively in in that division? Maybe not, but it's still a division change. It's still got to go through all of the bylaw requirements for making division equipment changes, etc. So no, you you can't do that. I mean, the flip answer to this would be like you should probably get a different gun, but I'm sure this gentleman likes the blocks, and I can't blame him.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Well, for 10 6, he just got it.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

So that's what he wants to shoot, you know. But I mean, yeah. Um, but I mean, you you buy a gun, they don't let you shoot it in the store to see if the slide's gonna bite you, you know. Hand me a about six rounds, let me check this thing out, right? But so but yeah, unfortunately, that would not be allowed. And I mean, we've seen it, people add material where they shouldn't be adding material at major matches, right? And it's like what's all this goop on the bottom of your gun. Well, uh it's not a uh magwell, it's just something that tells my hand where to go. It's like so yeah, it's you know, just not allowed, and it's specific to that division.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

So the other option is go ahead and do it and start shooting that in um Luminate Optics. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Because you can do all sorts of crap, you can put a magwell on it. Right. Do all sorts of things. Yeah. Put something that tells your hand where to go. Yeah. Not a magwell. Yep.

First Mag From Table Edge Cases

SPEAKER_02 47:22

I'm just gonna leave that one right there. Uh all right. I have a question regarding first loading device must come from the table in a written stage briefing. The stage brief states that the first loading device must come from the table. Other magazines can be on belt. If a competitor attempts to load their first loading device from the table, magazine goes into the gun, but magazine does not fully seat and it drops out. They then proceed to grab a magazine from their belt. Is that a procedural?

SPEAKER_00 47:52

I would say no.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yeah, no, you've already paid a pretty big time penalty. Um, because now you're having to do an on the clock, essentially an on-the-clock reload, not to mention you've started mag falls out, probably on the first shot. Um, you're paying a pretty big time penalty.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

So that one. Yeah. That magazine was the first loading device, right? Yeah. So it doesn't mean that you have to use only that one. I mean, if it if you stick it in a gun and it doesn't stay and it falls out, then you did use that first loading device from the table, which is what I told this guy.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

But it is an interesting question. Yeah. To me, this is one that a lot of people would approach differently, right? Well, say, oh no, you put a new, you put one off your belt and you didn't use that one, and yeah, so you get a penalty. But I mean, come on, think about it, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Well, I've seen this where they have this requirement and they want it to be a per shot penalty if you don't use that mag.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Well, but how many, how many shots were you gonna shoot from that mag? Well, if there's a reload required somewhere in the stage.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Well, so so if you're shooting low cap, you're gonna get less penalties. Um, my whole thing is this isn't a shooting challenge.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Right. Um, so I have a hard time do it making anything like this a per shot penalty. Right. So if it was something like you have to hold hold the have the be holding the heavy ammo cannon while you're shooting, right, in your weak hand and you don't do that, yeah. Maybe that would then be a per shot penalty. But for something that's not more actively involving shooting, it's just involving taking one mag off a table, um, I don't think it should ever be a significant penalty.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

Right, no, right.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

I mean, if it said all magazines are on barrels or tables or whatever throughout the stage, and you have to have an empty belt, uh, that might make a difference. But I mean, really, again, would it be per shot or just one procedural?

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Well, and then that is that a shooting challenge. That's a punish the low cap shooters and make them play, pick up all your mags.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

So I agree. Yeah, but I mean, I found it interesting that the first the first thing you said was no, which was my first impression when he asked this question. And I got to thinking about it. I'm like, wait a minute, let's talk about it. Yeah, but he did use the first loading device from the table, so I wouldn't call that a penalty at all. Nope.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Well, so the same token is let's say it's the first mag has to come off the table. And when the person reaches for that mag, they knock it off the side of the table onto the ground, right? And their hypothetical is then well, then it's a per shot penalty if you take one off your belt. And I'm like, I'd say it's a procedural because you know, yeah, you know, if if they went and picked up the mag off the ground, then it wouldn't be a procedural. But if they use one off their belt, I'd say it's a procedural because it saves them a little time.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yeah.

unknown 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Yeah, if you really want to screw people, just say that the first shot has to be fired from that mag.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Um that's yeah, but then when things go wrong, RO's are black.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Now mag jams. Now I can't shoot, okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Can't shoot the first shot of it.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

So yeah, there's all kinds of screwy ways you could write that stage brief, but I mean, uh, you know, it's it's one of those things that when you write a stage briefing that requires stuff like that, you really need to think that through. You really need to think about what happens if they don't do this. How is it gonna be penalized, right? What's gonna be the advantage or not advantage? Yeah, is it even gonna matter, right? So anytime you start getting outside the norm, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't try different things, but I mean when you get outside the norm, you should be thinking about what's gonna happen if this doesn't go the way that I I want it to, right? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Remember, I don't know, was it a year ago, two years ago, we had a guy said he wanted the start position to be that you start with all your bullets outside of the mag ammo outside of the mag. Yeah, and you end it with the mag on the clock.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Yeah. No.

unknown 52:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

I would take the penalties and just use them off my belt. I know, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Are you out of your laughing mind?

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Well, I remember talking with Guy Neil one one time in a match, and he was saying that he'd shot a stage where you walked up and you unloaded your mag into this coffee can that was sitting on the table, and then you loaded your mag from said coffee can on the clock, and there was all sorts of scattered miscellaneous rounds in there because people weren't grabbing all their rounds.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

And like you could end up shooting the ammo that was you know unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Um, they did empty rounds between shooters, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

No, apparently not.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Remember when I said we used to have wood burning 1911? That's back in those days.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

There was the stage at Nashville's where you had to take a shower. You had to pull a thing and you got wet when you showed.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Oh, Jesus.

unknown 53:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Well, but it was buried. Is that isn't that kind of normal? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

It wasn't raining. We weren't shooting Nassau's, that's for sure. Especially single stack. Oh my god, we got the worst thunderstorms through there during single stack because it was always in May.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

And May in the Midwest, you're just about to suck it up, man. You're gonna get hit.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Yeah. Started a stage, but you know, remove three ticks from your left leg.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Yeah, exactly. Stay out of that grass, man, it's full of ticks.

DNF Scores Upload As Zero

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Oh my god. Anyway, all right. Um and then finally we had we ended up with uh two two people wrote in with the same question from the same match within about 10 minutes of each other. Um, and there had been a problem with the match and big backup. And a bunch of people elected to not shoot uh one of the stages was a classifier special. So all the stages were classifiers, and they elected to not shoot the one of one or more of those classifiers. And there was a lot of confusion about whether, you know, that was a zero or would the zero play against their classification, and how were those supposed to be reported? So I thought we could just kind of go over the right way to report that someone did not fire that stage, which is a hint. Um, and uh what's gonna happen when that's recorded reported.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Um, you have to use the DNF option because they have to have a score. Yep. And the DNF means they did not fire, means they didn't start the stage, they didn't shoot it. And I thought the board said that those don't count, but I'm not 100% sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

No, it counts. I set it up uh and just use my tablet here and set up a little match and then put in a DNF for one of the competitors, and you look at it, it's just a zero.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Well, when that's uploaded, is the system gonna remote.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

I thought they I thought they I thought they amended it in a board meeting that says that DNFs don't count, but maybe they changed it.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

It doesn't report that way though. It it uploads as a zero. There's nothing that says this is a DNF zero versus uh I had a Death Jam zero or a shop too many no suit zero. It's a zero and it counts. So they weren't doing anything for themselves by getting a DNF.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

But so do scores still below two, so it used to be scores below two percent. Uh didn't count for the old system. Is that no longer true?

SPEAKER_01 56:05

As far as I understand, everything counts. There's no six of eight, there's nothing, everything counts. So which brings us back to the member number and people not wanting to put it in and you know, everything else, because evidently the the competitors we have have determined that there's a flaw in the classification system and they're gonna try to game it as much as they can, but I don't know if it works or not. So there we are.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Oh boy. Yeah, yeah, DNF reports as a zero when you upload. All right.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Not a DNF zero, it's like when you pass your RO certification at 86%, or you pass it at 100%, you're still a range officer, right? There's no 86% ROs out there. It's a pass fail kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

So it's like the the guy that graduated the bottom of his class from med school, what do they call him? Doctor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Exactly. So yeah. No, it's a funny thing. I I have a grandson that's 19 or 20 now, and he's a smart kid, right? But he's this generation of kids that are like don't pay attention to nothing. So he had a class trip to Germany. Uh he's in school at LSU, but they they had some group thing going to Germany. And his mother posted something the other day that said, yeah, Gavin showed up the day before he was supposed to leave with no clean clothes, nothing packed, this, that, and the other. You know, he just didn't have anything like prepared for his trip. And then now he's posting pictures on Facebook from Germany, like he's a uh seasoned traveler, right? It's like food pictures and special, you know, displays pictures and you know, the museums and all the stuff. And I'm like the kid couldn't, it probably didn't know, didn't even tie his shoes before he left for the airport. Now he's out there like running around Germany.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Is he wearing the same shirt in every phone?

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Uh no. I think she probably got his clothes washed. It was kind of funny. I was like, yep, sounds like him.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

Yeah. I was talking to a friend when I was in college, and he was bestowing the virtues of spending his summer backpacking through Europe. He says, It's great. You just put everything you need in your backpack. You don't have any luggage. You can you fly to Europe, you backpack all over the place. It's fabulous. And I said, Well, that sounds like a lot of fun. He says, Helpful hint though, don't forget your underwear. And I said, Well, okay. And there's a story here. He says, Well, yeah, I forgot my underwear, so I just had the one set of underwear I was wearing. And I'm like, Jeff, don't they have stores in Europe where you can buy underwear?

SPEAKER_01 59:16

Right. Or laundromats, a fountain in the town square you can beat your stuff on a rock.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

You know, a sink in the hostage. Because he also he stayed in all these hostels all over the past. Because it's cheap. I mean, I mean, he got to see an amazing amount of Europe for very little money, you know, sure, and had a great time. And there's a lot of other stories we can't talk about on the podcast. Um, but uh, you know, it's just like they don't have stores there. Just go buy some more. Oh well.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

I was we were talking the other day, me and another guy were about packing for um for different things, right? So for like seminars, you know, he goes, Well, do you check a bag? I was like, never. I could probably pack what I need just in my backpack, you know. Because I mean, our jerseys are are not bulky, underwear and socks aren't bulky. Are you really gonna dirty up a brand new clean pair of pants in a couple of days? Probably not. Okay, not gonna bring any other shoes, probably. So, I mean, it it depends.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Yeah, you know, if you're outside and it's gonna be muddy, yeah. You know, but I've I've done it just, you know, especially if I don't have to take a projector. Um, I've done the whole weekend out of a backpack pretty easily.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

I've tracked mud into an airport that my mother would have beat my butt for.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:46

I try not to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

But yeah, it's uh, but I mean, you know, it's just I think the more you travel, the the better off you, you know, you get. You learn how to pack. Do I need this? Not really. Do I need this? Not really. No. You need your phone charger, you need your phone, because everything, all the tickets and everything will work off your phone now. So uh but it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

But yeah, you don't have to you don't have to move and bring a whole new set of clothes because I mean if you don't want to go out to eat in your instructor shirt, well, bring yourself a t-shirt or something else. But I mean, I don't care. Nobody looks at it and gets all impressed about it anyway. They're still bringing the bill at the end of the meal. Right. Yeah. You owe us money. Nice shirt.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah. Well, you know, and I I tend to travel and you know, I have a bunch of under armor shirts, which are basically about white constructor shirts in terms of bulk. And, you know, I can take along several extra shirts. It's not a you know, that's it's that is not what is taking up the bulk of the luggage.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

So and if you I mean you ride. So when you're packing saddlebags and stuff, if you roll everything, you get more space, right? Just gotta roll it tight. Most of the clothes these days don't wrinkle like they used to, so it's not like you're gonna look like a bone. Yeah.

unknown 1:02:17

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

And I don't care if my Harley t-shirts are wrinkled up and I'm dragging them out of my saddle bag.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

Yeah. Yeah, it's yeah, if if I end up taking having to take a bag, then you know, I take along, I do take along a spare pair of pants because I have been known to dump dinner over them. But you know, it's uh because that's when they always want to go out. Oh, let's get the tacos, you know. Oh, goody.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

But uh, you know, you can wash that shit in the in the uh sink in the in the hotel and then hairdryer could dry.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

Yeah, right. Yeah, you can't. I've done that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

All kind of things you can do. Like when I was in South Africa, um, and this was the first time I've ever seen this, I I sent some clothes to the laundry, right? Because there was no way I could pack for two and a half, three weeks in South Africa with weather, etc. So uh a couple days later I had some dirty clothes in my room, and and the maid came and she goes, Oh, would you like us to wash those for you? I'm like, sure. So they washed them in the hotel laundry. Well, and just put them back in my room. Damn, if I'd have known that, I wouldn't have paid for the other one.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

I mean, they got all those washers and dryers, right? You might as well do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

Yeah, pretty sure you aren't gonna see that happen in any U.S. hotel.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

Not without well, I mean, they'll wash them for you, but you're gonna get a bill.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Oh, yeah. Well, they don't wash them, they they send them so so it's funny, some of the places you go have uh free washing machines, like a lot of the have uh Hilton home to suites. Yeah, they have free washers, and then some of them don't. You gotta pay for it, but you never know, right? You gotta go check. Right. That's pretty nice because those are, I mean, it's kind of important. They have a lot of them too, because that's an extended state kind of place.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Yeah, although I have I did learn the hard way. Be sure you check the washer and the dryer before you put your crap in there, because the guy before you could have washed like a bunch of greasy rags and you know, and made a mess out of things, and then uh the you put your clothes in there and you get destroyed.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

So or left the red swap.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

Everything comes out pink.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Man, we're slipping.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

Uh remember when we used to talk about booze, now we talk about laundry. Oh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

I'm like, I think we've lost half of the listeners by now.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

But anyway, anybody got anything else?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Uh no.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Well, 72 RO classes scheduled so far. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Damn.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

So we're on a we're on a schedule to beat last year. 100. I'm glad we added a couple of instructors. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Have the new guys been cleared to teach on their own?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Not yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Uh, I think Thomas has done two. I think Russell has done two. So they got to get one more. I think that's coming up pretty soon. So we'll get them working on that. Yeah, it's I gotta check and see what they have. But last time I asked, they only have one, but then I know Thomas did one in um uh Bel Creek.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

Last weekend, and I think Russell didn't. Dan was posting pictures.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:49

Russell did one.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Yeah, from Russell's class this weekend, so right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

Yeah. Uh Dan Russell was teaching and Dan was providing keen insight. Keen insight in taking pictures. Yeah, taking pictures. So anyway, uh one of the questions I got asked was why do why did we think we had so many last year? And I think there's several factors. One of them is we've got a a major increase in membership and clubs. Right. Oh yes. So much so that what we're seeing is not enough clubs and members. We're seeing not enough places to shoot, right? Um so schedules are getting filled up. Uh matches can only take so many people because they only have so many bays and the demand is high, right? Um, but I think one of the other factors is that, you know, between the blog and the podcast, we push our seminars quite often. We talk about, you know, hey, it'll make you a better competitor if you come to the seminar. You know, we need our o's, you want to give something back to the sport, et cetera. Um, and then I think that the methodology of the seminars has changed enough where people actually want to go do it. Yeah. So all of those things, I think, combined are increasing the the request for seminars. So we're gonna continue to do them as as you know, as many as we can. Um uh if you're submitting for a seminar, though, make sure you put an alternate date on there and then be flexible in case we say, hey man, we can't do either one of those, but we could do this, right? So it might work for you, or give us some other dates and we'll try to work it out. So but it's uh it's weird that we have 13 instructors now, 11 active, and on any given weekend they may all be somewhere, you know. Yeah. So that's uh that's becoming a thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:45

It's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

Yeah, it's a it's a very good thing. I mean, there I remember years when there were only like seven of us, and there was one year I know that a bunch of us were wondering if we were gonna have to tell Jay he couldn't have all the seminars he wanted so the rest of us could get our three.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Right. Yeah. I think that's about the time we set our selection system up too. So yeah, yeah. But yeah, at first it was just, you know, whoever raised their hand first, pretty much got it. So but we've changed that. So yeah, I mean, and you know, if you're scheduling seminars, then we're still exploring other ways to make the seminars a little bit more efficient, a little bit more user-friendly, a little bit more hands-on, right? Um, but changes like that don't come immediately. We gotta talk about it, we've got to think about it, we've got to try it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

Um, but as the year progresses, I'm sure we'll see some changes in our in our seminar format, et cetera. And as you know, time passes over the next few years, um, we may be doing something totally different. Uh don't think we'll ever get away from the in-person thing, but I want to try to um empower some of our better, more experienced CROs into a mentor kind of program so that they can mentor people. Um couple of the problems in doing that is we've got to make sure that we can vet those people well and we've got to make sure that everybody's on the same page. Um, and I've said it many times. I mean, even amongst the instructors, we're not always on the same page with presentation stuff and other things. Uh, if I had 60 CROs across the country, that would be a bigger headache than 11 or 13 instructors.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:39

Well, so back in the day we tried the CRO instructor thing because Jay was a CRO instructor. Yeah. And uh they real quickly decided that was a bad idea, and he so he had to become an RM and so he keeps being an instructor.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

So Yeah. I mean, it's there's challenges associated with it. I'm not I'm not saying it's impossible. Um I'm talking with one of the area directors about it that's done some training and stuff and military and police kind of thing. So he may have some ideas. In fact, we may bring him on a podcast and talk about it uh once we get something sort of oh sorted out, right? We don't want to go throwing a bunch of speculation out there because you know how that goes. It'd be like, well, Troy's been on the podcast, we're gonna do everything online, and then next week we expect that, right? No, that's not it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:34

Yeah, so I I still say everybody thinks that we can do this online and has never written an online class and gone through all the I mean, that's a lot of work. And you know, then people are, you know, if you want to actually make it to where it works and people actually learn from it, um it's it's a lot of work. There's a lot of video production, there's a lot of animation production, there's it would be, you know, it's it would be beyond the three of us to be able to do that. We would have to bring in professionals.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

And that's to me that's not that is the issue is having taught during the pandemic class, we usually, I usually taught the person in an academic setting to a completely online is the students did not learn nearly as much when it was online only. And you know, that's our you know, that's our main resistance for doing this online only, is we want to make sure ROs are learning. Um, those of us who've done mandate have to do mandatory training every year for work. Yeah, I don't pay 100% of my attention. I just learned enough to pass the little exam and be done with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

Well, especially when it's the same damn presentation, five years running.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

Right. But you know, we don't want our so is the RO class perfect in that we turn out these superstar ROs? No. No. We at least get people started and thinking about the rules. And you don't become a good RO till you go out and use your skills and practice at your local match or sections or sectionals or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:14

Um do we get a hundred percent retention of all the information we give at the RO seminar? No, but in any kind of teaching setting, you don't get a hundred percent retention. Um we also are working very hard to make sure we're accommodating all the different learning styles, the visual learners, the audio learners, the kinesthetic learners. And you know, when you're online, you don't get the experiential learning. No, right? Um, it's great for the people who are maybe visual or auditory learners. Um, but at that being said, I'm a very visual learner. And when it's a boring video, I tune out. I'm not gonna lie. Um but I think you know, I've had a lot of I like the last class I taught, we had a range master who had led his certification lapse, and he was taking the class to get back in the graces of the range gods, and he was like, Man, this class is so much better than when I took it. Um even uh Thomas, who you know, he took the same version I did, and he was like, Wow, this class has changed a lot. Like, yeah, yeah, we've worked hard to change it and make it better. So, in general, every time I have the class and there's someone who took the previous version, they're like, Wow, this is so much better.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:35

I had somebody in a class that took it at about the same time I did, and he walked in, I'm setting up my digital projector, and he goes, What, an overhead projector and transparencies? Yeah, no, we haven't used those in a long time.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:47

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:49

Well, you know, we went from one time we we had carousels and asked the club to provide the projector. We just carried the carousel with the slide deck. And then they went to a bunch of just uh printed overheads, so you had to have an overhead projector. Jesus, that was a pain in the butt.

unknown 1:14:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

Shuffling those, you know, clear plastic projector things and all that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:13

Well, everybody has an overhead projector just laying around somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Well, you know, we got this one from the school.

unknown 1:14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:21

It hadn't been used in a while. Well, it put out about a hundred uh lumens, you know. Great. Awesome. So but yeah, and I'm you know, and the fact is that anything that's important and anything that's safety related is generally not taught online. It may be refreshed online, but it's not taught online because if it doesn't give you the opportunity to ask questions to interact with somebody that has experience with it, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

So when I was at Exxon, I took a lot of training that was, you know, almost all online, but it had to do with uh policy or it had to do with you know harassment stuff or or things like that. But when they teach you to drive a forklift, uh that's not online. They teach you to drive a man lift, that's not online, right? They teach you to firefight, that ain't online. Uh so you know, it's just stuff like that that you know you got to you got to get some hands on, you need to have a little bit of uh experience with it. You gotta have somebody actually teaching you and coaching you. And that's what we try to do during the class, right? And I think that's why a lot of people like the live fire the best, a, because they get to shoot, b, because they get to be coached and they get to see stuff in action, right? So, like Jody said, it's kind of a visual thing and it's an experiential thing as well. So, hey, I did it, I know how to do it, right? And do we turn out, like you said, uh a perfect RO? No, it's a basic grounding in the rules and the procedures and how to do it, and then we tell you, go forth and prosper, right? Uh, because experience is always the best teacher. But if I if I use the forklift thing, I mean, when I got done with that, could I drive a forklift? Yeah, was I great at it? No. I was pretty slow and clumsy, but you know, as I got as I used it, I got better, right? So I mean, it's just like anything else. They don't teach driving classes in a simulator, right? They don't, you know, if you don't go and learn to drive a car with a simulator, you drive a car with a person.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:33

Well, some some places they start you on simulators to save the fenders of the real cars, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

Right. But I mean, ultimately you don't, you know. So and people have brought up the NRA RSO thing. And yes, you can gain your RSO through the National Rifle Association online, but you have to have their basic handgun course first, which is never taught online, it's taught in person. So that covers all of the safety stuff anyway. The RSO thing is mostly just procedural things. So and and if I'm wrong about that, please feel free to send us a fan mail. But I know that I know that it is online and that you have to have the thing. I'm just not sure the content of the classes. But yeah, but we continue to evolve the training, you know. So if you're if you're worried about going and being bored all day long and just sitting around doing nothing, that's not the case anymore. Um, and I think that we have a whole cadre of of very dynamic and and experienced instructors to deal with. So don't be afraid, don't be scared. Sign up if you got a chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:47

And apparently you have at least 72 chances this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:50

Well, yeah, I'm already done so far.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

Pretty much I was looking at the schedule. Our spring classes, we have multiple classes every weekend. Um if in summer we kind of slow down because everyone has matches and it's hot, whatever. But there's still space in the summer. And then fall, if you want to do a fall class, I suggest getting it scheduled sooner rather than later.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

Well, we lose chunks of September and October because we have nationals, and typically a lot of the instructors are tied up at nationals. So right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:23

Well, I've gone top class as well. If you guys are all at nationals. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:26

I have October this year is is only Epstein Nationals, though. We'll be done with USPSA by then.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:33

So I guess it's it's August and September. September, yeah. August and September. I was thinking last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:39

But uh July if you count multi-gown, but then October, November, December. Pretty light uh with major matches, at least on my calendar.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:48

So yeah. So yeah, you know, and once you get start getting into the latter part of November, the northern tier kind of freezes out. So, but uh yeah, it's uh there's there's still some spots, you know, get those, you know, and don't let that stop you. Go ahead and request a class. But you know, as we keep saying, don't write, don't put in an application today for a class this next weekend, because that ain't gonna happen. Yeah. Um and even if you go out two weeks, it may be tough to to you know get you an instructor. Um, and you know, it's because not, you know, not everybody, not everyone is available every week. Oh, yeah, there's 13 instructors and there's 52 weeks in the year. Well, yeah, but not all 13 people are available on all 52 of those weekends.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:39

Yeah, because there's area matches and section matches and local matches, there's guys. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:47

Yeah. I mean, not all the instructors are retired. I'm I'm hoping to join that the ranks of the retired instructors shortly. Yeah, but uh that's you know, I think um, you know, we Thomas still is still working, Jody's still working, I'm still working. Matt, Matt's still working, is Russell still working?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:09

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

Yeah, he's retired. So I was gonna say when because he's always seems to be at matches, but um so you know, there's there's still some of us that are still working, so you know, and you know what? We have other things that we do um that that burn some of our time. And so for you know, it's it's it's not that there is a carrying capacity, and it's a it's a system, and any system has a carrying capacity. So I'm not sure what that is, but I think we can hit 100 pretty easily. I mean, we got what 94 last year? 92, 92, so yeah, we can we can handle another eight easily.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

Yeah, I don't think there's gonna be any issue with that. So yeah, we could be wrong. They could peter out at 80, you know. And then nobody wants anything else, but that's still a pretty good year, huh? That's a that's a very good year, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:08

So all right. We've probably paddled on long enough. Anybody got anything else?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:14

I got nothing.

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SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

Juddy? Nope. All right. Well, as usual, folks, if you have questions, comments, etc., um, rules at uspsa.org and those emails go to all three of us, and we typically will get back to you very quickly and uh yeah, usually within 24 hours. Not always, but usually. Um so and especially if you send in on a Friday, we may all be traveling and at classes. So um, but yeah, we will get back to you as soon as we can. So, and so with that, thanks to both of you and good night, everybody. Good night. Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NROI seminars under the NROI tab at usbsta.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NROI seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRY tab at USPS.org.