Introduction and New Rulebooks

SPEAKER_04 0:11

This podcast is brought to you by the National Range of Oxfords Institute, United States Fractional Thooting Association, and Steel Challenge Shooting Association. Small World Flux can be found at USBSA.org slash rules, STSA.org slash tools, and on the USBSNSAD apps available in your Apple App Store and Google Play Store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the National Range Officers Institute. Role discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. Discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules could be emailed to rules at USPSA.org. This is episode 94, recorded late February, 2026. Well, hello everyone. Kevin Emmel here with the NROI podcast, and joining me as usual, our director, Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

Good evening, everybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:14

And my other assistant director, Jody Human. Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Good evening.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

All right. Well, we'll be back at it for another two weeks. Jody and I are finally got winter. It snowed several times. Um, and uh was when I was last outside, it was snowing again. But so we got winter finally at long last.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

Um you can keep it.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:45

Although I know you guys need the the moisture.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

We do. And we really need the mountain snow batter. It's gonna be an absolutely terrible uh fire season.

SPEAKER_05 1:55

I think it's gonna be a terrible fire season anyway, but uh heck we're having fire season down here, which is almost unheard of.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

But yeah, I saw that.

SPEAKER_05 2:02

Southeast Louisiana was under drought conditions for a while, and then now that there's a lot of pine wood out there and everything, and I don't know what started it, but it's certainly burning. I shut down in the state yesterday because of it.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Oh yeah. Yeah. So anyway. Um all right, before we get rolling, uh, either one of you have any announcements to make uh about who means.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

There's new rule books coming out March 1st. So we probably should yeah, we probably should make this our uh rules update.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Oh, we probably should, shouldn't we?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

Well, in fact, last episode we said we were going to, and then I totally went and spaced it.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah, so hopefully I they've been sent to the IT guys. Hopefully they get up on the uh website March 1st. I'll try to remember to send a reminder. Um, but they are coming. Uh they probably will be available on the website in PDF format first. So uh look there. Um I don't know when we're gonna update the the question pool, but it'll be soon. So once the new rule book comes out. Um so make sure you're using the proper rule book uh when you take your exams. I'm pulling up the change logs.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

So yeah, so yeah, the new new new books uh and since that is this Sunday, technically, if you have a match this Sunday, you're into the new rules. Well the podcast won't come out till Monday though. So if you had a match on a Sunday and you did it wrong you did it wrong, yeah, you did it wrong. Um you know, and the reality is there there aren't so many changes sweeping changes that it's gonna you're just gonna have to throw the match away.

Counterfeit Targets And Vendor Compliance

SPEAKER_03 4:12

But uh you know it's how many mailing paper books.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Um my announcement while Jody gets that done is covers a complaint we get um pretty much on the regular for some of our target vendors. And that's the fact that you can buy non-licensed, non-USA made uh still with the headbox B zone perforation and everything on them, targets through Amazon that are all coming out of China. Yep. Um, those are not official targets. If individuals want to buy them and use them for practice, then USPSA doesn't really care about that. And we don't own the target design. We don't even have a trademark on it because that target evolved from an earlier target many, many years ago. Um but we do own the the uh trademark on IPSC and also the trademark on USPSA. So they if they say that on them, then we have attorneys that are we have a trademark attorney and he will go after that company or whatever for trademark infringement, whatever that takes. I I don't I don't know what it what it takes, but I understand it kind of takes a while too. Um but you know if you're a club buying targets and you're buying them on the cheap Amazon doing that, that's not kosher, right? That violates your affiliation agreement. Um you're not running legal licensed targets, so that you're not actually running a USPSA match. So nothing you do in that match technically is gonna count. Um we don't go from match to match to to uh police your targets or whatever, but it does get reported. I'll get I'll get emails that says, hey, I shot this match and the targets are all this funky looking cardboard with uh B zone on it and a head perp, right? Like, yeah, well, we quit making up, we quit uh using those. There's still some in inventory somewhere, I'm sure, because occasionally I'll see an actual licensed target with a B stamped on it. But by now, most people have run out of that inventory, so we don't do it. And you can tell the difference if you go on Amazon and just put in uh USPSA targets or something like that, right? It'll pop up a bunch of vendors that are selling them that are all out of China, and uh A, it's the cheap Chinese cardboard, and B, uh we want to support our our licensed vendors because they do pay a small royalty on targets to USPSA. So there's a reason that they get that license. And if you're concerned, you look in the bottom of the G-zone on any cardboard target, and it needs to have that that company name and their license number uh embossed on it, right? So that's the way you can tell that it's a licensed target, and you can go to the target vendor list on uspsa.org and check to see if who you're buying from is actually on that list. Of course, the complaints we get are from the vendors themselves. Um there are two companies that sell on Amazon, one of them is CHL, and the other one is let me see if I can find that guy's thing. It's a it's a checkmate defense. So checkmate defense and and chl both sell on Amazon, but nobody else on there is an is actually a licensed vendor. So if it says Guan Chan target company, you ain't getting it from a USA-made licensed vendor. So be aware of that because at higher level matches, and I haven't really heard any complaints about people using them there. Um, but if if you use it, you're not gonna get credit for that match. If if we know that you've used illegal targets, then we're gonna take that away. So make sure you buy it from vendors that are licensed.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

At least one of those online vendors has an address that makes it look like they're in California.

SPEAKER_05 8:16

Yeah. Um and but whatever receives them is in California.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Yeah, they're they're real, they're the they're not. And they make all sorts of claims about how they're official, but um yeah, that they're not. So, you know, if you want to use those for practice, if you got some in the garage and you oops, burn them up for practice, that's fine, but not in your ranches. Shoot them up, don't burn them.

SPEAKER_05 8:43

Shoot them up. Well, you can burn them, I don't care. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Well, if you're in California, that'd probably be fine.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

But anyway, I know several people that uh that would prefer you to burn them up in in a mass fire. So yeah, yeah. But that's the thing, and I'll be putting out a a notice about that in the magazine and and to all mass directors and and uh uh you know yeah, mass directors, rm, stuff like that. I'll put something out so that everybody knows it's gonna be similar to the club culture thing that went out to everybody.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Yeah. Yeah, we realize that uh official targets aren't cheap.

Cardboard Specs, ECT, And Waterproofing

SPEAKER_05 9:29

And but you know, that's that's kind of the cost for they're actually kind of coming down though. And if you look at the overall, because they've started using, and I make this comment in every level one class I teach, and sometimes the level two is like when once I started this job, I never realized how much I would have to learn about cardboard. Right? Because the initial specs were a flute spec, which is the flutes of the little corrugations you see in cardboard, right? And it had to be a BC or D flute, and it had to be so many flutes per inch and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh man, okay. All right, I got this. And then the cardboard manufacturers started coming out with a new thing called ECT, which is edge crush test. And these targets, these cardboard pieces can be thinner because they're better made, right? Um, and thinner and a little bit stronger. So now some of the manufacturers can put 125 in a box or 150 something.

unknown 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:31

So less on the shipping, you know. So some of that changed and evolved a little bit. The targets are fine. Uh I found a way to correlate between flutes and edge tests, ECT test stuff, and so it all works out all right. But um, the thinner targets, I've seen them in use all over the place, and they seem to hold up just as well. And if in fact may be a little bit less susceptible to getting wet from the from getting rained on through the through the middle, you know. So anyway, and they're easier to treat. They swept the whatever you're spraying on them up pretty quick, and um, you know, it's fine, but uh cardboard is I'm sure there's a whole industry, just like you know, every year it's shot, there's like a concrete uh convention, right? And there's also well, there's also another convention there about the same time as shot, but there's a concrete convention. I'm sure there's a cardboard convention somewhere. Oh, I think it's a good thing. Probably huge.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, I'm sure there is. I'm sure there's you know, and if you know, as map as target prices have changed, if you uh, you know, don't be afraid to raise your match fee to help cover your costs.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

Right. Waterproofs are you know getting better and better. So we're seeing better waterproof targets. You don't necessarily need them all the time, depending on where you are, but they're not a bad investment if you're gonna run a match that you want to run on time and not have to bag and do all that other stuff. So you offset the cost of the targets with the offset with the cost of the bags if you're using waterproofs. Um, waterproof paste is a little bit more expensive, but not quite as much as you might think. And, you know, everybody can make a choice, but the vendors here in the United States do a good job with their targets. We get uh maybe once every two or three years a picture of something that's oh, this is off spec. And okay, so you know, like Target Barn doesn't cut their own targets, right? They have a company that does it for them, and occasionally they'll be their machine will get off, or they'll be cutting a piece off that isn't supposed to be cut off, or the dies get bad, whatever. Uh so that's not really Target Barn's fault. And you know, you can imagine that they're not gonna open every case of targets and get and inspect everyone, you know. But every target vendor I know will will make those good for you and at no cost to you, or whatever. So it's just a part of doing business for them. But the guys settling from China ain't gonna do that for you either. So no.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Um, so yes, there is. Um, the national trade fair for corrugated and solid board industry is called Pac Expo. It's in Chicago in October. So pack your bags.

SPEAKER_05 13:14

Thank God for the Googles.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

I'm I'm sure we have somebody listening that is actually excited about Pac Expo.

SPEAKER_05 13:23

Um what if they make like cardboard forts? Do they bring like you know, finance boxes like my kids used to love?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Box port.

SPEAKER_05 13:33

I could when I when my kids were little, I could go buy a uh not buy, just get a refrigerator box and bring it home and get them a couple of dull knives and some crayons, and man, they may have a fort made in 30 minutes. Yep.

unknown 13:47

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Do kids today know the joys of a cardboard refrigerator box? I don't think they do.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

They probably want somebody else to build it for them.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

No, they'll have to watch a YouTube video to get it done.

unknown 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

I was digging around out in the shop the other day and ran across the dregs of a box of uh USPSA targets um from probably 20 years ago. And I you know five or six targets left, and then I pulled them out and I was like, damn, these things have changed. Oh yeah. So oh well, not quite old enough to be four to eight, but yeah. Oh well. So everybody got their change log up, and which one are we gonna start with? You wanna start with comp rules or do we want to do the short ones first or the long one? Uh last year we did the short ones first.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

So that I mean, we do we want our readers or our listeners, not readers, we're reading, they're listening. Uh, do we wanna, you know, everyone's gonna be real eager to hear the comp rules changes. So maybe we uh do the two short ones first. Yeah, let's do the and and I uh I I'm gonna skip over the ones which are just kind of like the admin change. So I'll talk about the change. You guys can have discussion. So let's start with uh SCSA.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

All right, let me get open. Yep, go for it.

Nostalgia And Target Evolution

SPEAKER_00 15:19

All right, so we have a new rule, 2.2.1, which is shooting boxes should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size on other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips are similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

So kind of riffing on the competition rules, fault line rules.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Basically, I remember an issue was brought up in a match where someone was saying the shooting boxes were too tall because they were taller than what they were useful, used for, and then Zach found that we didn't really specify heights.

Steel Challenge: New Box, Trigger, And Interference Rules

SPEAKER_04 16:12

So I've also shot steel challenger matches where the shooting boxes were uh one inch flat iron welded in a square with you know quartering, one one by one quarter flat iron, which that was yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:31

How much um I mean a smooth surface, dirty surface, rock stuff, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, 1.5 inches. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

It's just the same as USPSX.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Right, it's right. It's just riff and on our fault line rule. It's still in the competition rules.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Okay. Um, I'm gonna skip the next two. Uh new rule. Yeah, yeah. 6x4, new rule. Binary trigger, forced reset trigger, or any trigger systems that allow one round to be fired upon pulling the trigger and another on release of the trigger. Use is prohibited. Use of the bumps, bump fire stocks or mechanisms are prohibited.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 17:14

So no forced reset, no bump fire, etc. I don't think forced reset or anything else would do you much good in a steel challenge match. I mean, I've seen some of these younger guys pull the trigger so fast it's it's not funny, but uh, I think that would probably throw them off, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

But probably slow them down. You'd have to think about they'd have to get a lot of reps in for it to become muscle memory to like yeah. They couldn't just throw it in and go out there in second time.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Um, so this next one, it's actually in all the rule books, so we can just talk about it now. 7321 at level two and above matches, only staff assigned to the stage may make penalties, safety, or procedural calls during the course of fire. When match staff are actively competing in a match, only the timer and tablet range officials and designated assistant range officials for a competitor's course of fire may take make calls, make such calls during the course of fire. The range master may make such calls anytime when present in a stage and when not the actual competitor during the course of fire. Because a lot of people were asking, how much can you know the peanut got during a SAF match? Are we all ROs? Are we that? So we kind of laid it out if you're you know really working the stage, make the calls. If not, we don't but this doesn't stop like the RO squad, if they see someone like handling ammo at the safety area, they can still enforce that. But during the course of fire, we don't want the whole squad making calls.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Okay, 8.6. This is another new rule. Assistance or interference or steel challenge. In the event that inadvertent contact from the range officer or other external interference influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the range officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the affected string. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of 10 may 10.2 may still apply.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

So more or less the same that we have in the competition rules for resistance interference.

SPEAKER_05 19:52

Yeah. There never was a rulement field challenge, and you know, honestly, I mean I can't figure out when that would happen, but I mean I guess it could.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Well, interference, I mean, I I could see that happening. Interference, especially, is well, out from exterior forces. You know, some idiot raises a four-wheeler through the middle of the stage.

SPEAKER_05 20:18

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

But I mean I've seen that.

SPEAKER_05 20:24

Well, it happened at Steel Challenge a couple of years ago with one of the guys that was uh vaping, right? Blew this huge cloud of vape smoke as the guy was shooting, he couldn't even see the target, right? So I was like, yeah, that was definitely a a stop and a reshoot for that string, definitely. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Okay. Um so 10 next change is to 1033, and this is an addition. So the original rule is dropping a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, at any time during the course of fire, is the DQ. Uh, we have now added, note that a competitor who, for any reason during the course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified, provided the competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or other stable object, and the competitor remains within three feet of the firearm at all times, and the provisions of Rule 1032 do not occur, and the firearm is in the ready conditions as specified in section 8.1, or a self-loading firearm has an empty chamber, the magazine removed, and the slide bolt, slide slash bolt locked open, or a revolver has a cylinder open and empty. So that's a whole bunch of sub rules to the 1033. But basically we copy those from the competition rules because this question came up and it was like, Oh, we don't talk about that in.

SPEAKER_05 22:01

Yeah. Well, it came up specifically because somebody you know put placed their I think it was a 22 rifle or something down on the table again instead of holding it.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah, they had to adjust their camera or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

Yeah, to adjust their camera or do something with their hands. It was, I mean, and it was safe. It was fine. Uh, because it was in the condition that's specified, which even then for that, the safety doesn't have to be on, right?

unknown 22:30

Yeah.

Safe Grounding Firearms And Sweeping Clarifications

SPEAKER_05 22:30

And it's probably a good idea to put your safety on when you do that just to make everybody a little less nervous about you placing your rifle or pistol on the table in a you know in a sudden fashion, I guess, is I think it mostly scared them rather than anything else, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Well, I mean now they have to have the safety on.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

If it has one. Okay. Um, 1136, that's the rule about sweeping. And we added, I think last year saying reaching forward the muzzle of a case mark firearm to close the case is not a sweeping infraction. Well, we added open or close to that rule now, because there were some people saying, well, you can DQ for opening a case. No, we just poorly worded. So we added open or close now. Still not a DQ. Um we had we added a definition for peak stage times. We updated the category awards table based on the update the board did. So you should look at that. Uh limited optics division is no longer provisional, it is a regular division. And we have a new provisional division, rimfire revolver, um, which has an optics and an iron sight.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

Some divisions, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:53

Actually, they are divisions. Rimfire rival uh Rimfire Revolver Optics, Rimfire Revolver R is two separate divisions.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yeah, they're just under the way we do it, they're under one appendix D. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

If you go back to the placing your gun down, uh-huh. Um it says ready condition in the 8.1, so you wouldn't necessarily have to have a safety on for rum fire rifles or PCCs or whatever, because they're out now. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, because it's a section. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

But like I said, good idea if you if you do put your safety on. Makes the RU a little less nervous, probably.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Okay. That's the end of Steel Challenge.

Divisions Update: Limited Optics And Rimfire Revolver

SPEAKER_00 24:36

So multi-gun, a lot of these are also in the competition rules. So I'll just point that out and then we can just talk to about them now and not have to do competition rules. So uh the first one is 2311, and we this is a one we also changed in the competition rules. It is the rule about uh declaring a forbidden action. And so in lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, arrangement master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain safety during a course of fire. That part is still there. We just added such declaration may only be made after competitor action or expressed intent has been determined to be unsafe or create an unsafe condition and may not be made prior to any such action or expressed intent. And this is in multigun and comp rules.

unknown 25:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Right. A good change.

Multigun And USPSA: Forbidden Action Refined

SPEAKER_05 25:32

Yeah, so last year there was some controversy over a match that had done uh a pre-match forbidden action, right? And it came to my attention, and I told them, yeah, that's not what the rule says. It's basically predicated on competitor action. It's not predicated on something that you think is going to be unsafe, um, that you can't fix ahead of time, right? And this was specifically had to do with a Cooper tunnel, uh, kind of a from the information I got, sort of a poorly constructed Cooper tunnel, and they were concerned that people would knock the slats down deliberately in order to get through it faster, et cetera, et cetera. And it mimicked their concern was was based on uh a level one seminar video we have of a guy knocking all the slats down and then tripping, sweeping everybody behind him, breaking the 180 and dropping his gun while he fell down, right? So kind of an extreme case. Uh, but you know, I told them you can't do this ahead of time. So in the rules committee and then dealing with the board, they said, Well, what if somebody says they're gonna do this and we think that's gonna be unsafe? Well, then, okay, yeah, you might want to do a forbidden action then. So that's where the expressed intent came from. Now, that guy might just be screwing it up for everybody else, but there still has to be the determination of it being an unsafe thing to do, right? So you never know. I mean, and half the time what people say is not even close to what they're actually gonna do, they just start talking, right? So I'm gonna run through here and do this and do that, and you know, it's maybe they're playing mind games with their squad mates, or maybe they're just thinking out loud, you know. Some people talk to think, and so maybe that's what they do. I don't know. But expressed intent is kind of a kind of an iffy thing in my book, but it still has to be determined to be unsafe, right? Yeah. So it's again, it's not for you to do lazy course design and setup and say, hey, we left a nail sticking out on that wall down there. Don't hook your your arm or you know, poke yourself with it. You gotta fix the the nail, you gotta fix the problem.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Oh, what you just can't require them to show proof of current tetanus shot.

SPEAKER_05 27:52

Yeah. Show me the vaccination, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Okay, I'm gonna skip the next two because the that one was just we forgot to update in multi-gun. All right, um 511. And this is gonna be another multigun and comp rules. It is the the rule that talks about handguns offering burst or fully automatic, operation or prohibited, and rifles and PCC offering only burst and are fully automatic uh are banned. And then there was some language about um trigger systems that has been revised to binary forced reset trigger, or any trigger system allows one round to be fired upon pulling triggering other on release of the trigger use is prohibited. And this is for all firearms. And then we have full auto burst fire, mechanically aided bump fire, and binary firearm with resultant procedure in the first instance and a DQ for subsequent occurrences. Um that's for the long guns.

SPEAKER_05 28:58

We probably maybe could have worded this one a little clearer, but I did send in a clarification for that, and it did it didn't make the final thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:10

So there needs to be kind of a definition of uh including how a force reset trigger works, but they're not legal.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

The reason we modified this is someone told us there's a company now making a force reset trigger for handguns.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And we got a question on that. Right. And no, you cannot put that in your handgun or your rifle. So um 7321 is the whole clarifies when staff or ROs are match staff and what they can and can't do. So we're not gonna cover that one again. Um that's an admin change, admin decide change. So 911.2, we probably should talk about that one. This is the rule talking about electronic scoring and how often you need to uh, you know, you have to provide a receipt, a hard copy or printout, and this and that. It used to say that you can only do all electronic scoring with uh permission of the USBSA president. Now it just says or provide digital records C911.2.1, which detail the requirements for digital records if indicated on the form C. So you don't have to get permission from the president, but you need to check a box on your form C. And Troy, you probably know more about that.

Binary And Forced-Reset Trigger Bans

SPEAKER_05 30:34

Yeah, just it's just an affirmation that you're gonna be doing following the requirements that we have in 911. And that's score logging and uh, you know, fairly frequent syncing with the tablets on the stages and then a twice a day upload of results to the internet so that people can view them. So uh score logging doesn't have to be, you don't have to have a Wi-Fi system enabled on your on your uh reins to be able to do that. Uh practice score will do it, it just requires that you sync every so often, and then that can be pushed to the internet. So there's several ways of syncing fairly easily, but yeah, uh most people are going to paperless scoring anyway. And you know, to be honest, they were doing paperless scoring whether we liked it or not before that.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

So yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

Well, I mean, if you look at at anecdotal evidence, right, and just what happens at level one, nobody paper backs that up. And there's very few complaints. Yeah, I know, but yeah, go there. Uh there's very few complaints we get that my score was wrong, right? Yeah because either either A, they don't care, B, they don't look at it, or C, it's fine, right? So it kind of makes sense to not force people to do paper if they can satisfy these few little requirements.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Right. All right. Then appendix A2, individual categories, that's changed for all the rule books. Um, we made one small change to the definition of facing uprange in Appendix A3. Um, it used to start with not facing uprange and facing downrange. Sorry, facing downrange is the definition we changed.

SPEAKER_06 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Um we took away the not facing uprange part because it used to be that facing downrange was the direct opposite of not facing uprange. Um, but we have relaxed facing downrange. So it used to be you had to be square to the burn, face, you know, facing straight down range and stuff. And we took that away a couple years ago. So we just didn't change the definition, it just made it a little shorter.

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Right. And just took out not facing up range.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah. Um appendix C2 number three, it's talks about that, you know, if you're using the center of your chronograph station, how far the sky screens have to be from the shady location. And when we revised this the last time, lab radars were the only radar units there. So we said you use the reading V0. Um, since then Garmin's have come out. So we just added if the unit only displays a single reading, it will be used as the muzzle velocity.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Garmin's and so many others.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Yeah.

Paperless Scoring Requirements And Syncing

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Just if you guys are your club's investing in uh corona equipment, just just do the garments. Just do the garments. Anyway, go Garmin. Go Garmin.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

No, you need lab radars, and um I've got one, I'll sell you cheap.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Well, you know, I actually made I made a comment in my last class that I want if anyone wanted a lab radar, and one of my students actually asked if I would be willing to sell it to him. And I'm like, I gotta get the Corono endorsement done first to make sure I don't need any more pictures or anything from it.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Because I know as soon as I sell it, I'll need it.

SPEAKER_05 33:49

True. I have one off shell.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah. Data at uspsa.org.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

Yeah. I need to is this still available? I need to, and I've even gotten the uh air rifle extra air rifle sensitive microphone trigger gizmo for it. Wow. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:09

Will it do an arrow as well?

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Um, I've never I never tried it. Actually, I think I did, and I think it does, yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:18

Yes, they're pretty good, they do all kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, well, Garmin's will do uh uh the soda can launchers for your ARs and um the chalk round grenade launchers too.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

So nice.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah, we we my brother and I talked about having a YouTube series, Will it Garmin?

SPEAKER_04 34:41

Well, I can tell you that it it does it does work on the spud gun.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty amazing. Anyway, so that was the end of the multigun rule changes. And like I said, quite a few of those are also in comp rules. So I think pretty much almost actually almost all of them, all of them are probably in the comp rules because we didn't actually make any changes to multi-gun. So all right, comp rules. Um, so we did a little rearranging of the stronghand we can mandatory reload language that's under was under speed shoots and standard exercises. So 1152, which was standard exercises and classifiers, may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position, location, or stance. We have that, and we added speed shoots may include mandatory reloads. Um the next rule that everyone's gonna probably either love or hate is last year they introduced for level one matches only the WSB may specify competitors must staying within the fault lines for the entire course of fire, so no shortcuts. Well, now that has been released or widened to all match levels, basically. So now just it says that the WSB may specify the competitors may stay within the fault lines, must stay within the fault lines. Right. So I liked Maine better.

unknown 36:06

Yeah.

Facing Definitions And Chrono Tech Updates

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Um, so I'm sure you know, I was I just I just hope people use some uh caution with this because I've been teasing my other the other RM for the major match we're doing that um so we when are we are we gonna have that stage that zigzag plank stage in the match and then you use one one five five? So don't abuse this.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

No, competitors will get very tired of a steady diet of this.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

So yeah, I mean I I the the forward's reasoning was it gives another option for stage designers, and I'm fine with that as an option. I'm just worried that people may abuse this to and build just to save having to add some barrels or walls or something.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:58

Um and miss misconstrue the you know what movement outside the fault lines means. So that means basically if you advance outside the fault lines, and that's gonna mimic the way that IPSC does theirs because you are required to shoot to move and stay within the fault lines. Um you know, if you step out and back in at the same place, like a drop step or something like that, no penalty, right? And that's same as it shake, but pretty much how we're gonna interpret it. But if you step outside in advance, then uh it's gonna be a first shot after you've done that. Now, if you step out, move up, move back, and come back in at the same place, then there's no penalty for that. But it's that's kind of complicated. So I'm anxious to see how this works out if people use it in higher level matches.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

So since this is failing to follow the stage procedure, I'm assuming that's the procedure we would use for this.

SPEAKER_06 37:59

Um, you would use well, you can't use footfall, so the way it's defined.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

So yeah, it would be that one.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

So that means that the per shot penalty would only be up number of penalties up to the number of scoring hits on the targets after.

SPEAKER_05 38:16

But I mean, in some cases, that's gonna be more than enough, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Oh, oh, yeah. Well, I just I'm just clarifying for people in case they start asking.

SPEAKER_05 38:23

Yeah. I'm sure we'll get questions about that. That'll probably be a hot topic for a month or two or or six.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

That's why I wanted a video, a video for the RO seminar.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Right.

Strong Hand Rules Consolidated Across Stages

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Okay. Um, we'll get one. All right. Uh this is a new rule, which is just kind of a rearrangement of rules. In any, it's 1156 in any stage or string procedure that stipulates strong hand, or we can use the specified handslash side, must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage or string. So there's that. So basically, we took the strong hand-only language, weak hand only language out of speech shoots and standard exercises and put it here.

SPEAKER_05 39:09

Right. Which is really that's that's a good change in my opinion, because people would not have a standard where they had this, and then it was hard to enforce that rule because it was people would argue that was only for standards, et cetera. So now it applies to every place where you specify strong or we can.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

So that leads us to the on one, two, two, one, the standard exercise rule. We just took there's some language that could delete it at the end. I'm not gonna read it all. Right. Um same with speech shoots. One one one two two three. We deleted a sentence. Yeah. Um the forbidden action rule we've already talked about, and then um we had to add some cross-references with an admin change. Okay. Ah, so 321, the rule that talks about the requirement, required information for your WSB. Um, we did add for under stage procedure. If not specified strong hand or weekhand only, then the stage is free stop.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

And I can't remember why we ran added that, but it got added.

SPEAKER_05 40:16

Because common sense is not that common.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Okay. That would be the right common reason.

Stay Inside Fault Lines Now Allowed At All Levels

SPEAKER_00 40:24

All right. Um this one I think they edited in during the board meeting, 413. And this is talking about no shoots, color of your no-shoots, and it was specifically metal no-shoots that were uh the reason, but they ended up rewording quite a bit of the rules. So the new rule for 413 is metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized targets may be used. No shoots must be of a single unique color, different from scoring targets throughout the match, throughout a match. Cardboard and metal no-shoots may be of different colors in a match, provided that the chosen color is consistent for all no shoots of the same material, i.e., if metal no-shoots are yellow, they must all be yellow. And if cardboard no shoots are white, they must all be white in the mat in a match. Metal no-shoots do not have a non-scoring border. No shoots may not have holes cut in them and be used as penalty targets that must be shot through to hit a scoring target.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Okay, and then the binary trigger for force reset was added. We already covered that. Um that's that's not changing the whole thing. I'm gonna skip that one. Um, so 5241. This is the whole rule about you know, the WSB says you can't use or WSB requires placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table, what you can and can't do after the start signal. Um, we just added or inserted a section that says when the WSB doesn't require the use of retention devices or pockets, the competitor can use whatever means on their person to carry magazines or speed loading devices, including multiple magazines in a pouch or on a magnet, um, and you still can't carry them in your mouth.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

That's just gross. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

So basically this rule now, so in the past, when carry carry optics single stack and production shooters would do the whole game of picking mags up off the table and slapped two mags on one magnet, they would get bumped to open. This basically allows that or prevents that from happening.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Yeah. So I like that change.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, I think it's just we don't care what happens.

SPEAKER_05 42:56

I mean, it's tough enough to try to start sticking single stack magazines into their individual holders for what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:03

But you know, since we allow magnets, then it's it's sort of a nitpicky thing about one or two on a magnet, especially in this situation. So I think that's a good chance.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah. And also, you know, when you are designing the all mags start on the table stages, right? You're really punishing low cap shooters. And is this a game of picking up your magazines or is it a shooting sport?

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Try it as try it with speed loaders and a revolver.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

See, I'm much more of a fan. If you're gonna prevent people from making you want mags to start everywhere in the stage or whatever, instead of having all start at the start table, uh, put several shelves or barrels around and let people stage them where they want. And that way they can pick them up as they go through the course of fire.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

The problem is that then people will spend 10 minutes staging their freaking magazines.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Let me move this over a quarter potential.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Yeah, you know, then they have to re you know, run it through. It's like, oh my god, no.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

That's why you have them stage their mags while you're resetting the stage.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Except they don't.

SPEAKER_05 44:06

If you're if you're running your stage right, they're better.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Yeah. Oh, you didn't stage your mags? You're getting moved down. Excellent.

SPEAKER_05 44:16

But now the flip side of that, you know, staging magazines is I have had a couple of people ask about, well, I was threatened with a DQ for doing that. Yeah, there's no DQ for putting a magazine on a table or a barrel or anything like that. So please put that out of your head. It's not a unsafe gun handling, it's a magazine. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

A few years ago at Area One, we had a stage where you staged your gun on the front barrel and you staged your mags at the barrel by the start position. And um I think we had one or two people DQ because they were staging their mags and then just staged their gun while the stage was being reset.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Yeah, well, that's not good. No, that's not good. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean that that happens. I mean, the stage and 14 done at uh at Ralph's make, you know, with the pull the handle to open the doors. We sent how many people home for sticking their gun through while they were resetting. So, you know, it's just brain fade.

Enforcing Movement Penalties Without Overreach

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah. Or you know, and like I think some of them, it was their first major match. And so it sucks. Because you feel bad at the same time. Don't fumble your gun until after make ready. Okay. Um, six two five one. That's the rule about if you violate the division equipment during a course of fire, you get bumped open or no score if you're an opener PCC. Um, we have added a violations of rule five two five or not cause removement to open division. And five two five five two five two applies.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

When you have your rule book open, well that's just the your it's the distance to the belt rule.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Yeah. So we just added that clarification because it's never it's never been a bump to it's never been a bump to open. But apparently people were trying to bump people to open it.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

Yeah, it's always just been a fix it. And it was only recently that we made it a zero. Um if you fail to fix it, because people are just like, well, okay, I'm not gonna fix it. What are you gonna do to me now? So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:40

Because what would you do with an open guy? You can't move him to open, you can't move a PCC to open. I mean, although magazine distance, etc. is not usually a thing you ever really concern yourself with in PCC, but for some of the other uh divisions for sure.

SPEAKER_06 46:58

So it makes it equal across the board. You don't do it right, you get a zero.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah. All right. Uh the next rules again, one that was is multi-gun and USPSA and uh SDSA about the role of uh when's a staff match, who's the RO. Uh we've already covered that. A lot of these are just little fixing things. And then the digital records rule we talked about for multigun is also in comp rules. Uh so 10-2, 10-1, which is the stronghand weak hand um thing. It's uh it used to say in a weekhand, strong hand weakhand, strong hand stage. A competitor who has physical use of only one hand may use the same hand for both weekends strong without penalty. We've added after physical use of one hand or arm. Yep. Um and then so was it last year we changed the rule about um sweeping with the PCC. And we said that if you sweep anyone, if you just if you're carrying a PCC muzzle down and sweep your own feet, then it's not a DQ. Um we've now changed it. If carried muzzle down outside the course of fire, inadvertent sweeping of the competitor's lower extremities with the PCC is exempt from the provided the PCC is unloaded and flagged. However, deliberately, deliberately pointing at or placing the muzzle of a PCC on a lower extremity is that DQ for sweeping. Right.

SPEAKER_06 48:32

So it's not a trap match. You can't put the muzzle on your toe while you wait.

No‑Shoot Colors And Consistency

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah. Um the next few ones were we already covered with multigun. So um this one, appendix C2 number 47, which was unless unless unless otherwise authorized by the chrono officer, once the firearm magazine are surrendered for testing, neither may be removed from the chrono station until the testing is complete. And we've added a couple, an A and B to that to reflect what we've been doing at matches. So A is should the primary safety mechanism or mechanisms be found to be non-functional or missing, the RM will declare the firearm as unsafe in order that it be withdrawn from the competition until such time that primary safety mechanisms are functional or are replaced with functioning parts of or firearm. The competitor will be allowed to leave the chrono station with the firearm to effect repairs and return at a later time for inspection. And then B is should the competitor's magazines fail to meet the requirements of the declared division, the competitor under the supervision of the chrono officer or the RM may disassemble and reassemble the magazine prior to being retested. At no time may the competitor exchange magazine components, make modifications other than cleaning and reassembly, or leave the chrono station with the magazine while the magazines are being tested.

SPEAKER_06 50:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 50:02

So that's that's kind of a I mean, the way it reads is pretty dry and uninteresting, but it's what happens when people you know brush out a magazine and put the base pad on backwards.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 50:15

But some of them is like, I don't even know how you did that.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

But so does the magazine work for you? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:22

If it's assembled wrong, then and you buy and you you bust the gauge, well then we're gonna let you fix it. Is that what that's what it says? Yeah. So make sure you got that base pad on the right way.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Or sometimes people, you know, they grep pick up a magazine they drop on the previous stage, and there's some grip between the tube and the base pad.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Right. So this would just give you a chance to you know drain the sand out and uh try again.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Yeah, but you don't get to grind the bottom of your magazine on the sidewalk or take the grip tape off. Or take the grip tape off or anything like that.

SPEAKER_05 51:01

Yeah. Just get to take it apart, put it back together, put your base pad on right if that was the problem, and then try again.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Okay, we have just two more left.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Um, oh well. No, we just have one left.

Mag Placement, Magnets, And No Bump To Open

SPEAKER_00 51:21

The other one's an admin change. Okay, so uh appendix C three ammo verification. This is for the certified ammo. Um if the set this is for when they you your uh origin the sample you gave for chronograph doesn't meet power factor and they go to your delivery sample. Um if the samples collected during the match measure more than used to be 10 power factor points below the delivery samples, the measured power factor of the ammo collected during the match shall be used for score. Um we have now changed that to five from we've dropped it from 10 to 5 power factor points below the delivery sample.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Right. We're tightening it up.

SPEAKER_05 52:05

And over the years we found that there's really never been much variation in that. It's it's always usually the same. Uh, you know, there's rules in there for swapping ammo and cheating and stuff. So uh most people don't do that. I mean, I would say I'd be pretty safe and saying nobody has actually done that, although I can't guarantee that. But the matches that I've experienced that where people had to go to their delivery sample to test it, it's always been within, you know, one and two to three power factor difference. Uh fives, you know, if it's if it's more than that, then probably something is off because they shouldn't be that there shouldn't be that much variation.

unknown 52:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:48

And that's kind of going back to looking at all the data that we've collected with certified ammo from matches, um, and looking at the range and the and the variation of stuff, and it's it's all pretty tight, right? So these guys aren't making terrible ammo. Uh it's usually pretty consistent.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

So anyway, that was all. I mean, a lot of them are changes across all three rule books. Um, you know, all the multigan are also in comp rules. We didn't make any multigun specific rule changes. And then STSA was primarily changes that were made based on questions that came up over the course of the year.

SPEAKER_04 53:28

Yeah, questions and comments, concerns. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

Well, and in a lot of those, we even were aligning them with missing rules, quote unquote, missing rules from comp rules that didn't make it over into the steel film rulebook.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

So people went there. And we should have uh when we renumbered the SDSA rule book, we should have just copied the USBSA book and then removed all the non-SDSA rules.

SPEAKER_05 53:59

Um that would have been better, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Me when I did updates. But we do get a case a lot of times where we have ROs or MDs saying, well, you know, we enforced it this way at the match because we thought it was the same. And then when we came home, there was we looked in the SDSA rule book, that rule doesn't exist, you know. Right. Um I think that's part of the the byproduct of having USPSA ROs also be SCSA ROs, whereas people who have only shot SCSA know the rules probably better.

SPEAKER_04 54:32

So in fact, we just had another one of those, so there'll be another change next year, next year to get another one leveraged in.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

But that's the way it goes.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Anyway, so nothing really super controversial in any of these rule changes.

SPEAKER_05 54:54

Right. I think that if we're gonna see any any uh comments being made, you know, fan mail being sent, send it to the board, don't send it to us.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:06

Um, you know, it's gonna be the 1155 about and people doing, you know, you must stay within the fault lines kind of thing. Yeah, because that's completely opposite of what we've done forever, right? Yeah, yeah. So people are gonna have to get used to it. And I did a I did a uh RO seminar up in northwest Arkansas, and I was telling them about it, and we actually tried it out, you know, and it for the that particular stage it didn't really make much of a difference. But yeah, a lot of people felt like if they could run out of the fault lines, it would it was a better solution for them, right?

unknown 55:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 55:44

So it kind of I don't know, I don't I hate to call it lowest common denominator, but it it cuts that uh part of the freestyle solution of the problem out because yeah, you know, we we say unless it's unsafe, you can do it. And we also have a mechanism for it takes a little bit more work and attention on the part of the master actor to do it, but you can set up off-limits lines if you don't want people cutting across certain parts or doing certain things. So this is gonna let you just say, well, you have to stay within the fault lines. And I hope that it doesn't turn into just lazy course design where, well, I made them stay in the fault lines where they couldn't do this or they couldn't do that, and it causes other issues, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:25

So I think nothing that we've ever done with stuff like that hasn't had some repercussions down the line.

PCC Sweeping Outside COF And Safety

SPEAKER_00 56:34

Well, but that just means next year there might be a change to it again. No. Uh right. Yeah, I think never mind.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

We took that back up.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Oh, that was a stupid change. We're changing it.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

Or you can only have X number per number, you know, X percentage of stages or something. So we don't we've done that before.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

I think it will be more about application of the penalties when it happens.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Right. And people, there'll be some ROs who are trying to penalize drop steps, or you know, someone steps up and steps right back in at the same spot. And I think from what I've heard about you know, the Ipsic enforcement of the rule, that's kind of the issue. It's it's their rule, their rule just says, because it's for all stages all the time, it just says you can't step outside. You have you you have to stay within the fault lines. That is the rule. It doesn't have the clarification that drop steps are allowed and inadvertent steps outside are you know okay as long as they step back in at the same location. Right.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

And so we have more words. Which means that if you step out and step in at the same spot, you have not advanced. But there's I've seen any number of IPSC or IROA officials call that wrong. Right. Because they're not, A, they're not really looking at where the guy's foot was. And so if he stepped out, stepped back in at the same spot and then went forward, then they think that he was forward outside of the fault lines. And in fact, I've had to correct that a couple of times that our Ipsy nationals were some of the international folks because their interpretation of it is if you step out, it's it's out, and it doesn't matter what you did, but that's not how their rule really reads either. So um, it's gonna be some growing pains with that, but you know, we'll muddle through it, see what people do. If if people even start using it. I mean, I know there's some level one clubs that matches that did it a little bit, but you know, people tend to vote with their wallet too. So either they come back and shoot or they don't, depending on how they like the stages. And it's gonna be interesting to see how many matches above level one actually do that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Well, I think what we're gonna see is some very complex, convoluted, maze-like shooting areas. Yeah. That people are gonna try to force people to stay within.

SPEAKER_05 59:01

Yeah.

unknown 59:02

Right.

SPEAKER_05 59:02

Well, here's the other thing with that rule. It's under the IPSC or the USPSA rule, nothing prevents you from jumping across from one shooting area into the other.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Oh, so you just educated our listeners on how to game it.

Chrono: Safeties, Mag Reassembly, And Fair Retests

SPEAKER_05 59:16

Yeah, well, they need to know that. So if you can, if you step in the same distance that you would jump, if you step and touch the ground, it's a penalty. If you jump and don't, it's not a penalty. Which to me is like you were trying to keep them in the fault lines and then yet you let them leap across, right? So at World Shoot, um Who was it? Chris Oosten. There was a stage where there was a they put a little barrel in the in the way to keep you from trying to jump. And he's he tells me before the stage, he says, I'm jumping. I was like, can he jump that far? He goes, Yeah, I can jump that far. I said, Can you not hang up on the barrel? Because I don't want to see you rolling around on the ground with your gun on the ground. He's like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna do it. And and he did. And he just he just made like a six six foot leap from kind of flat footed and made it into the fault lines, and then he said, Well, I don't think that did me any good because you know I'm a little off balance and stuff. I said, Well, I get it, but that was pretty phenomenal. So, of course, several other people try it and they didn't make it, so they they ate a penalty, you know. But uh, you know, it's one of those things, and and they asked the ROs, hey, can I jump across that? And and they were like, if you can make it, you can make it, right? So I think that's gonna be a thing we'll see. Um, and again, it to me, if you can do that, then it turns it into more of an athletic ability thing than anything else, right? Yeah, it whether it gives you an advantage to do it that way or not, because he could have taken a step to the right and stepped across the corner piece, right? Instead of jumping across the forward thing. And I I don't think it would have made much difference. That's what most people did anyway. So um, but it was interesting to see him do it. It's gonna be a thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Yep. We'll see, see how many questions we get.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

Yeah, and I I think we'll probably get some at least questions on the change to the forbidden action ruling. There were people trying to figure, you know, things or apply that too broadly or too narrowly, too narrowly. Um, so we'll probably get a few questions on that one. But the rest of it, it's all pretty straightforward stuff.

unknown 1:01:40

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:43

One thing about the forbidden action is you still can't use it to control movement if it's not a safety problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:49

Right. So just be aware of that. And I'm thinking if you're the range master at a match and somebody comes up and says, Hey, I think I want to do this, and you think that that's expressed intent, and you go pop a forbidden action in on it right there. I mean, I really would encourage you to give that some thought and think about whether he's really gonna do it and whether it's really unsafe, right? Right. I mean, safe is is one of those words that you know people interpret a lot differently. I I did 25 years in the petrochemical industry, and and to them, safety was anything they didn't like. Right, you know, and so it's like, is that really unsafe? Well, yeah, it's unsafe because I'm saying it's unsafe, that kind of thing. I don't want it to fall into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

No, isn't that that's how the forbidden action rule was originally used, right? Didn't it change?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:48

Kind of somebody the story I got was that somebody ran around a culvert that was set in as a tunnel and actually ran up the sideberm to do it, right? Yeah, so then they said, Oh yeah, you can't do that because you're up above the berm. And I don't think the rule that we had in have in place now about not climbing berms and stuff was in place then. So forbidden action's been around for a while, but that was where it kind of originated from. They said we have to do something to stop this. So then they said, Well, you can't do that. And they made him reshoot, and then anybody else that did it, they said it was a safety thing, which it it it in fact was.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

But but I think I mean, because I know one time at one of our state section matches, a shooter, a person who's been in the sport a long time, right? Um he was asking about you know uh stage design and stuff, and he was like, Well, but if a competitor does something you don't like, you just declare forbidden action. And I'm like, no. No. Well, they used to do that all the time, like you know, back in like the 80s, like or you know, kind of thing. And I'm like, well, we don't do that anymore. It has to be a safety issue now, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

I think it came came back in the 08 book.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:06

Yeah.

Certified Ammo Tolerance Tightened

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

And pretty much, yeah, because and the original, the original version of that was pretty loosey-goosey because I actually submitted a stage for a level two match using a pre-declared forbidden action as part of the stage design. Um, the match never happened, so um, you know, it didn't really matter, but um the you know, and and I think about that point in time, Amadon went. Uh and shortly thereafter, there was a ruling that tightened it up. So um this was back in the era when we when NROI issued a lot of rulings because we were still in paper books and they were usually several years between editions, so there were rulings all the time. Right. And uh I as I recall, there was a ruling that came out not too long after that clarifying the forbidden action role.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:08

Yeah, you can't go by what they did in the 80s or even the early 90s because it was kind of crazy shit. It was kind of like, yeah, we don't like that, so we're not gonna let you do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:19

Yeah, go back and listen to the Michael Bain episode from December.

Stage Design: History, Gaming, And Lessons

SPEAKER_05 1:05:23

I heard uh I mean, one of the most famous examples of that, which I think that they actually got right, was Lisa Munson running underneath a tractor. Yeah, right. And so they said, Well, the WSB said all your rounds had to pass beneath the tractor. So they thought that meant shots, right? But it didn't. They said rounds, and she ran under it and all her rounds passed under the tractor. And then the logic behind their decision to let it go was well, she can't run twelve hundred feet per second, right? Yeah. So that was the the thing. But then the you know, being able to not have to crouch down and stand up. In those fault line areas, so it was great. And they fault line the back side of the tractor as well. So they had to have thought, you know, that maybe somebody was going to do that. But yeah, that's one of those things that you know it just blew their minds. And uh, there was, I guarantee you, there was a 45-minute discussion on the stage with nobody shooting before they actually figured it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:20

Yeah, the first time I ever heard that story was from Lisa herself. So hi Lisa and leave it to the Smurf.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:28

Um, yeah, that was I mean, yeah, she was just like pew right under. I was actually I actually watched her do it and I was like, holy cow. And then of course, oh man, it was like minds blown all over the place. Yep, can she do that?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

She just did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Where's your WSB better next time?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

Yeah, right. So yeah, and it's you know, I mean, that's got to be one of the classic examples of of gaming, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:04

And so, yeah. Kind of one of the things we mentioned in in CRO classes is, you know, you can't really get married to your stage so much. And if some some gamer guy drives his big dump truck through that hole you left, well, then learn something from it, right? Yeah. There's no tool in the book that lets you just say, Oh, you can't do that because I didn't want you to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Right. Exactly. I think the best learning tool for stage design is you design a stage for your level two match, and then you work that stage. And you get to see and hear people's comments about the stage.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

And when they find the hole and exploit it, you just file that away for next time. As uh, oh, I can't do next time. I need to do this if I want to avoid that.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:54

Yeah, so the the video we have in the level two of Logan Clark just blowing that stage up by leaping in and out of the fault lines and jump, you know, sticking away out and blowing up a target from up close and everything. That was a class I did and a stage somebody designed, and nobody had any idea he was gonna do that, but he's he's good at doing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:16

And he came up to me right before he shot and he said, I'm gonna do something different. I said, You're not gonna like do anything unsafe for you. He goes, No. I said, All right, go for it. And the guy that had drawn that stage was just standing there with his mouth open, right? Can't believe he did that. I was like, now what?

unknown 1:08:35

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:39

Well, but but but yeah, I was like, Ain't no butts about it, dude. He just tore you a new hole right here.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:46

So yeah, yeah, having your your prize page design just destroyed is very humbling.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:54

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:55

Well, and you know, we don't not all one, not all your stages are gonna be awesome, right? And I look back at some of my early stages and I'm like, wow, these kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:08

Oh, oh yeah, I have a whole file of those.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

But you learn and you you get better, right? And also our sports change, like the style of stages everyone wants now very much have changed immensely in the last since I started the sport, right? And I think it's just because our competitors, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:31

Well, I mean, when I started, you were shooting designated targets from a designated box.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:38

Right. And so I mean, that was very simple for course design. Oh, yeah, and people still fretted over it. Well, what if they do this? What if they do that? And I'm thinking to myself, nowadays, those guys back then, if they were still around, would be just losing their minds.

unknown 1:09:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:53

You know?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

They'd be like, look at them running around.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:56

Yeah, but it was certainly set, it was very simple to set up a match. I mean, you didn't need any walls or nothing, you just needed some boxes and some targets and maybe a barrel or two to hide something, you know. Yeah, so very easy to do. And uh Bianchi Barricade was the thing. Man, if you if you had three or four of those, you were a high dollar club. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

Yeah, and some steel.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:20

Yeah. Yeah, it's just it's I mean, it's even changed in the 24 years that I've been in the sport. Um, you know, that you know, I think about stages when I went, you know, to my first majors, and you know, some of the more complex stages are you know things that clubs set up now for weekend matches. So it's you know, that um, you know, lot a lot of you know, a lot more. Plus, I think there's more, there's more stage design tools, um you know, as opposed to what we used to have, just kind of draw that on a piece of paper and you know, and and now we have a lot, you know, a lot of really good stage design tools, um, you know, electronic stage design tools, uh, you know, practice in designer is incredible. Um you know, SketchUp is is fabulous, and there's others out there as well. And that being able to in visualize in you know, essentially three dimensions your stage design has really led to a lot more complexity, lots of you know, hidden targets that you can only see from one specific location. Um, you know, lots of that type of stuff. It's really tight shots, uh, which were hard, you know, when you're just drawing it out on a legal pad, it's pretty hard to, you know, to convey that intent if you even had that intent. Yeah, so I think overall, I think stage design has really, really come a long, long way. Um, which is I, you know, it's it's good for the sport.

Growth Of Level Twos And Stage Quality

SPEAKER_00 1:12:03

So well, and like like you said, used to be you'd only see complex stages at nationals or areas or whatever. But you know, the reality is when I started, no, there was very few level two matches. Oh yeah. And now we have a ton of level two matches. There were some bigger matches, but they were being run at level ones. But now we have all these level two matches, which means their stages are getting looked at by us and um and people are putting on these bigger matches that you know where competitors are are expecting better stage quality as well. Yeah, right. And then that they take it back to their club, and so yeah, the stuff we're seeing at local matches that they build that day are sometimes just as good as those stages that were built for a big match, or they're taking the stage designs from those matches and building them at their home clubs. So overall, our sport, the the match quality and the number of major matches that are out there has grown by leaps and bounds.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:09

Very much so. Yeah, it's when I first got into it, there were there were no level twos around here. It was just area one, that was the only major the there were level twos over on the wet side, um and then one down in, you know, like the Portland, Oregon area, but that was you know farther than most people were willing to to drive, you know, for the um you know, for a one-day match.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:45

But now people make whole weekends of match matches.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:49

Yeah. So yeah, it's well and and even then, you know, back then your level twos were six, six, maybe eight stages.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

And now we're seeing level twos, you know, you know, I think you know, level, you know, your areas used to be eight, twelve stages. And now we have areas with a whole lot more than that. Yeah. Um and your level, you know, we've had level twos up into twenty stages.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

You know, so yeah, everything's changed for the good.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:32

I was just yeah, I'm sitting here looking at the list of matches, the uh the list of matches that are approved and pending approval. So pending approval is we have a lot of matches coming up, folks. So and uh if for those of you that have submitted form C's and your match is coming up in the next month and it hasn't been approved because you haven't submitted stages, uh you might want to get busy. Get those in here. So yeah, there's an amazing number of here's an 18, 18 stage level two. Oh, that's a world, no, that's a world, that's a rifle world claw fire match. Never mind. Uh but there's an 11 stage sectional, 12 stage state. Yeah, it's it's like 12 stages is the default now.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:37

So no, good stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:43

More and more, but yeah, turn your turn your stages in because if we get 20 of them at a time, it takes a while to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:50

So yeah. Um if we end up having to do a lot of back and forth. Yeah, that can that can suck.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

Yes indeed. Anyway. What else we gotta do?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:20

I think that's got it for tonight.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:22

I think that's a good episode, solid episode.

Approvals, Submitting Stages, And Closing CTA

SPEAKER_04 1:16:25

Yeah, time-wise anyway. Um, not the most exciting episode, but it was necessary anyway. So um, and we did tell everybody we were gonna do it, even if I forgot that we said that, but that's okay. So, as usual, folks, um, if you have questions, comments, concerns, whatever, send it to rules at uspsa.org. All three of us see that, and we'll get you an answer as soon as we possibly can. Uh, comments about you know uh the rules, uh be sure and send those to your member of the board of directors. Uh those are the folks that that uh that that vote on those. Um contrary to popular opinion, we don't write them all. We we'll take ideas and help craft it into something that looks like a rule, but um we're we don't just sit around naming stuff up. So we have other things to do. So anything else from either of you before we tie the ribbons on this one and call it a night? I am good. Yeah, me too. All right. Well, thanks everybody, and we'll see you in two weeks. Bye.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:35

All right, good night.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:37

Are you looking to take your first range officer class? Maybe you're looking to upgrade to chief range officer or audit a seminar to brush up on your rules knowledge. The complete list of upcoming classes can be found by following the link to find NROI seminars under the NROI tab at USPSA.org. No class is near you. Your club can sponsor an NRY seminar. Follow the request seminar link under the NRY tab at USPSA.org.