NROI Podcast
NROI Podcast
55. NROI Podcast May 2024 #2
For this episode: Jodi brings us a report on the recently completed Area 1 match in Winnemucca NV on a range that was built just before this match happened. Jake Martens also joins the gang for a discussion on by-law 16.2 as it pertains to the CO/LO discussion; we then discuss holstering and muzzle pointing distances; what is the call when the optic falls off a CO/LO handgun during the course of fire; and age requirements for participating in USPSA/SCSA matches and some of the details around introducing the young crowd to our sports.
Note that this session ran over two hours so we have cut this in half. This is part 1 and part 2 will be the next podcast.
Note: Transcriptions done by AI or other means may not be entirely accurate. This podcast, and any transcription thereof, does not constitute an official NROI ruling. Questions should be sent to rules@uspsa.org.
This is the NROI Podcast, your source for factual information for USPSA and SCSA competition. This podcast is brought to you by the National Range Officers Institute, united States Practical Shooting Association and Steel Challenge Shooting Association. Go and roll books can be found at uspsaorg slash rules, scsaorg slash rules and on the USPSA and SCSA apps available in your apple app store and google play store. All rates for this podcast are reserved. No portion of this podcast may be used or redistributed without written permission from the director of the national range officers institute rules. Discussions on this podcast do not constitute an official ruling. The discussions on this podcast are meant to inform and educate. The only official rulings are published as per the bylaws of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Questions about rules should be emailed to rules at uspsaorg. This is episode 55, recorded late May 2024. Well, hello everybody. Welcome to the NRY podcast. I'm Kevin Emel and, as usual, I'm being joined tonight by Jody Heumann. Good evening, jody.
Speaker 2:Good evening.
Speaker 1:And Troy McManus. Good evening, Troy.
Speaker 3:Good evening everybody.
Speaker 1:And our frequent, semi-frequent guest, Jake Martins. Good evening, Jake.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 1:It been a been a uh a little bit, but uh glad to be back on yeah, I think you hold the title for the most the most frequent guest, even though it's probably only four or five times, but we don't have people back all that often.
Speaker 4:I guess we should fix that so well it's been a while and I assumed I just made everybody mad last time well, all you did is talk about just made everybody mad last time.
Speaker 1:Well, all you did is talk about rule changes, I think last time. So no, that'll do it. Yeah, that's true, all right. Um, well, let's. Uh, anybody got anything they want to go over before we jump right into it here, or? All right, hearing nothing, jody, jody, just got back from Area 1. So how about? A report on Area 1 was on a brand new range, like as new as a range can possibly be, and so how did that go?
Speaker 2:Well, it was a beautiful range. The Giordanos I think that's how you say it did a great job with their range. It was a good match. It was hot, winnemucca is very arid and dry and we had a little wind, but not bad. My stage. I was an RO. Yeah, we made a mistake during the one target change and had to reshoot three bonus squads on Saturday. It was great it did, but at least we caught it. You know we fessed up. We're doing the target change the next morning and I saw a skunk target laying off that was just getting taken off a stand that didn't have a skunk target. It was like a half hard cover and I'm like shit Anyway.
Speaker 1:It happens.
Speaker 2:It happens. You know we fixed it. We got the squads through. Everyone was happy. The big thing was we ran a dual Garmin C1 pro chronographs for the chronograph stage. They worked great.
Speaker 2:My brother ran it, so he is going to crunch some numbers for me, but every morning he calculated the error between the units. It was less than 1%. It was usually like 0.07% between the units. Wow, you had to actually read the numbers really closely to see which one was higher and it wasn't always the same one. It was very, you know, random between the two units. Which one was the higher velocity and, um, most of there's.
Speaker 2:It was had two shooters shooters who owned them and were like, oh, those are great, and then shooters who were like I was thinking of getting one, do you recommend them? And both the guys at Chrono were like, yes, I think Garmin probably made some sales at that match. Yeah, because people were just like those are awesome. I know, you know, compared to matches, I've only done one or two matches where we used lab radars for Chrono and we always had the occasional problem with it not picking up PCCs or there were issues.
Speaker 2:These seem to be a lot less finicky, seem to work really well, after the first day it was only a half day with the chronograph for the first part of the staff match. They have batteries about at 50%. So what we did was they just got topped off with a battery, a large battery pack, at lunch and then they lasted rest of the day and then we just charged them overnight, made sure they started off, charged. So, um, they worked great and I'm going to write a little follow-up article for the magazine about it. But I mean, I think a lot of people already heard from a couple people that they're going to switch their garments for the chronograph station at their matches.
Speaker 1:So well, and they?
Speaker 2:they take up virtually no space well, I know, usually the chronos are the big item at the chronograph station and now they're the tiny things at the chronograph station.
Speaker 1:You know, with with the old optical chronographs we had the big chrono coffin and you know the chronograph station. You know, with the old optical chronographs we had the big chrono coffin and you know the chronographs themselves were large and you know, fill up a tote full of chrono crap and these garments. You can just stick it in your pocket and walk away. It's there. I love mine. I was really happy I got it.
Speaker 2:And the best part, you can't shoot them. I mean, if you do, you're doing something very, very, very wrong.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you got other issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have other issues at the time. Yeah, and I just want to reiterate, for those of us who shoot the divisions, so pretty much anything other than what single stack and production, any other divisions where you are on PCC cause we don't measure PCC or revolver but any other divisions where we measure your magazine length with an EGW mag gauge. Those maggot mag gauges are probably 40, 45 bucks. You spend how many hundreds of dollars on your mags? Yep, you should own one to be able to check your mags before you come to matches. Um, you know especially, and always make sure you put your mags together the proper way. Don't put a base pad on backwards or anything like that, because it's going to have consequences if that mag is the one that gets measured at the chrono station.
Speaker 1:So Well and know the length of mags you're allowed to use in the division you're shooting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I said, we had a production guy who was shooting 141 mags in production. Yeah, it didn't fit in the box.
Speaker 1:Another advantage to shooting revolver. None of this magazine crap.
Speaker 2:There were a whole two revolvers in the match, Kevin.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I could have been in third place.
Speaker 4:On purpose Three.
Speaker 2:oh man I could have been, I could have been in third place on purpose three.
Speaker 4:I mean they forget their gun and that was like. That was like their glove box gun or something no, no, they were shooting.
Speaker 2:You know the, the, the good gear for robo they. It was intentional. And we had one guy shooting from concealment. Then we had a. I guess he was shooting. Must have been shooting open Revolver from concealment, no regular semi-auto from concealment.
Speaker 2:And then we had a guy who had it was an open gun and he had a slide racker in the front dovetail mount on the slide. A what? Yeah, it was weird to see. I'd been. My brother had told me about him when he came through chrono. Then he came through my stage and I was just sitting there looking and I don't know what sight he had, but it was really big and round and so I could see the way it was mounted to the slide. There really wasn't a place for the slide racker towards the back of the slide, but I was just like looking at it going huh. So I've never seen that before where the front site would go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause it was a dovetail cut slide. I guess he only had a tool to make dovetail cuts and wow, yeah, well, it was unique. Let's just say that that is.
Speaker 4:That is a first, and that's I had never seen that before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd never seen that before yeah, the chances you sweeping yourself going for your slide rack are pretty high yeah.
Speaker 4:That also does the exact opposite for a table start as a slide wrecker.
Speaker 1:Let's put some more weight on that egg release, shall we?
Speaker 2:It was a good match. They have interest of hosting an area. They said they're going to put in more bays, so maybe in nationals Winnemucca the town was very welcoming and you know tourism is a major part of that town.
Speaker 1:But it's a long ways from everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh. The best part. The best part is we were driving into the range right and they had all these sponsor banners and we saw a lot of Trump signs right, the Republican Party actually sponsored the match. Outstanding they had a table there and they had like a cardboard cutout at Trump and they were out there the whole match, you know, just talking with people and stuff. It was interesting so I think that's the first time I've seen that at a match.
Speaker 4:So the G or the G or Donnells, that, that farm that they have, um, I mean, johnny did an amazing job and I've talked to Shannon. Um, this is Johnny.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Shannon Um about some of the stuff they were doing and the things that they were going on out there and how they prepped with all the stuff and bringing Chris Collins in as part of it. I mean, everything I saw leading up to it looked like it was going to be a great match. And then all the videos after it. They unfortunately picked the weekend of the NRA show and I know that there was a lot of the pro shooters that didn't get the chance to make it out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jaleese came and shot through with the staff so she could go to the NRA show.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there was a lot of those guys that were at the SIG booth, at the Canik booth, at the Beretta booth. They were all kind of missing out on it. Um, so it was, uh, it was great to see. I mean, they literally built that range for that match.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they did a good job. I mean, um, you know, all the stages were good and challenging. Um, all the stages were good and challenging. They had the food and the staff support was great. I mean they did a great job and I look forward to going back there, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it looks like Chris has got another turn in the barrel next year. Area 1 returns to my hometown of Nampido.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it'll be.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking it'll probably be a June match, dates to be determined, but I'm excited because that's relatively close for me to go to Well, and I've got obviously family still down there, and so that works out well for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually I grew up on that range. It didn't look anything like it does now, but I grew up on that range.
Speaker 2:I think you said they were adding bays too.
Speaker 1:Probably yeah, all right, excellent. Well, thank you, and I'm glad it worked out well. I was a little worried when I heard that the range that they had selected didn't actually exist yet. It's okay they have earth-moving equipment Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they put a lot of work in and, yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's fabulous, all right. Well, next on the list is kind of the reason. Jake's here. I mean he just likes to come by and give us a hard time but have a little discussion regarding USPSA Bylaw 16-2 and how this plays in with the differences between carry optics and limited optics. If you have been hiding in a hole somewhere and are not aware, there's a debate going on as to whether carry optics and limited optics are the same or different, and if they're the same, then you just lump them all in one division. If they're different, they stay in two divisions, and so, um, you know that's so. Anyway, I'll just I will let troy and jake carry it from this point forward. Go for it.
Speaker 3:Let me preface this discussion with a little bit of history on 16-2. So 16-2 was modified and put into place to allow for not-so-frequent equipment changes in the divisions. It doesn't really affect if there's a provisional division, but it does affect changes in the existing divisions. It doesn't really affect if there's a provisional division, but it does affect changes in the existing divisions and there's a specified timeline in there and I'm not going to get into the specifics on it. If you're interested in it, you can go read 16.2 in the USPSA bylaws and it spells out the timing on how changes are brought about and when they come about, et cetera, et cetera. So that was the reason for Bylaw 16-2. But it is going to play a part in some of the discussions.
Speaker 3:In the board meeting last night, which was live streamed, there was a discussion about limited optics versus carry optics and some statistical data that a member has put together showing differences in the two and maybe that there's not a lot of difference. But sample size was questioned and a couple of other things, and there's also a survey out about it. But there's more than just a gun with an optic involved here and and that's what? Uh, that's what we brought Jake in, for he does a lot of analysis on on divisions and per percentage of participation in them, et cetera. So, uh, having said that, I'm going to shut up and let uh, let Jake talk.
Speaker 4:So yeah, Troy, you're you're correct about 16, two. Um, so there was an update to 16, two in the 2022 in-person board meeting. So originally, 16-2 specified that there couldn't be any changes in divisions that made anything exclusive in like a two, two year period of time. But there were some changes that took place that, uh, you know, the board kind of gets blamed or like, oh, you guys are changing divisions every every six months and you're making updates to the visions every six months, and which, which wasn't really necessarily true. There were some changes that did take place in 18 and 19.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because the allowances weren't there. Yeah Right, if it was more permissive, it was okay. But then there was some pushback about you. Know well, you're making changes too frequently.
Speaker 4:And some of that was to keep up with the industry at the time. Right, because you had the modularity of the firearms that were coming out, specifically the 320. There was the at the time that one of the changes that took place, you had to have 2000 of a SKU number produced and readily available for production, but only 500 of that same gun for carry optics, so a gun could be approved for carry optics before it could be approved for production, which caused some confusion within the industry. That was one of the changes. There's still the debate about the weight limit change versus. You know what used to be in there, that it was the division, the manufacturer's weight plus four ounces, and then we ended up at that 59 ounce that was out there, which was at the time pretty much all encompassing of whatever firearm could possibly ever come out. Now that's all kind of to say. All that stuff was that there hasn't been any significant changes to introduction of the Provisional Division of Limited Optics, which went into effect as a provisional division which follows 16.2II. So the reason why this was brought up in the board meeting last night that we were on is because it's now been one year and there's some very specific criteria that the board has to follow for the bylaws, and one of them is is that at the one year mark during the initial review period of the provisional division, which will be 12 months, unless there is there can't be any changes within the division unless there's something required by law, which would be, you know, some huge capacity ban or something. There's supposed to be surveys that were to take place during the initial 12-month period, which there was one that was released in July of 2023 that went through September, so there's only been the one survey. At the 12-month mark, the board can decide if they want to continue collecting data or if they want to stop collecting data, which gives them two options. If they stop collecting data, then that means they're either going to make it an actual division or they're going to cease that as a provisional division. So what was decided last night in the board call was that they should continue to collect data. It was brought up about should there be another survey? Who's going to produce the questions for that? Again, I thought the board should be the one who's producing the questions, based on talking to the members that elected them in their area. There was no timeline put on that, so hopefully the members that paid attention to the meeting last night will be reaching out to their area directors saying, hey, if you're going to do a survey. These are the questions you should ask or put their thoughts on.
Speaker 4:The divisions between limited optics and carry optics are that limited optics allow single action triggers versus the striker fire or double action single action required in carry optics and production. The other one is that magwells are allowed, but there's also race holsters that are allowed. Distance from the belt, your magazine pouch distance. There is no requirement for having the gun approved, which is this is where the biggest difference kind of comes in In carry optics, like production, it's designed to where a gun is basically a minimum of 500 are produced and readily available to uh to the consumer. Limited optics doesn't have that. It's based around limited division and open division to where they're custom race guns. There's very, very, very few. Uh. Well, there's no custom gunsmith that's going to make 500 of one gun and even some of the bigger custom shops like infinity, atlas, akai, um, they're not producing one model of a gun in that large of a quantity. Uh, so none of those guns would ever be approved if you tried to do that. So if you took away that stipulation of 500 guns produced, it now becomes a custom race gun division. So there's the perception of the barrier of entry, and all of our growth has always been around the divisions that had the lowest barrier of entry. You're able to walk in, purchase a gun at your gun store and show up on Sunday and be ready to go. You may not feel like you're at a same competitive level if everybody else is over there with a race gun, and that's kind of the biggest difference between the two. So the other thing and this is just one of those, and this was an email that I kind of sent back to the board messing with carry optics is kind of like Coke introducing new Coke. It didn't seem to go over very well.
Speaker 4:So carry optics has been the absolute most popular division that USPSA has ever had since they split into more than three divisions. At its peak, going out of last year, it was a 30 round up to 39 percent, and it's sitting at 37% right now. So it's only seen a 2% decrease. At the same time, open has seen about a four to 5% decrease, but limited optics is sitting at 22%. So that means 15% of the people that are coming into Limited Optics are new members, which is actually the second highest that we see. Carry Optics is still number one.
Speaker 4:So the division is doing what it was supposed to. It's a place for guns that didn't necessarily fit in other divisions, being that there wasn't enough built. It has custom features to it and it's bringing in people that had a gun that wasn't competitive in an open division, that didn't fit into carry optics division. So it's the second most popular division right now, at 22%. The next closest to it is open, at 13. So you have two divisions that make up roughly 60%, almost 60%, of all of the activities in USPSA right now. If you combine them all you know, then you've got everybody just kind of shooting 60% of them all shooting one division.
Speaker 4:There's something to be said about that. You know the competition is a lot more diverse. But the other thing I think the divisions kind of define are they're kind of the graduation course where you can come in with, you know, an off the shelf gun, be competitive in production or be competitive in carry optics, decide to customize something, move into limited, move into limited optics or, you know, want to go top field dragster and move into open or bounce around and play in all the divisions. So I think the membership that's happy with the way things are should be vocal. I think the membership that thinks there should be some changes should also be vocal. So that was kind of.
Speaker 4:The idea behind 16-2 is that the board cannot make any changes to any of these divisions until it either goes to the rules committee for existing divisions, out for survey and then back for a vote, and then provisional divisions have to be surveyed throughout the 12-month period of time. So members are putting their input in so the board can make a decision instead of how it was before. You know, 10, 12 guys sitting in a room, a presentation is made and, presto, next week flashlights are legal. Or you know, all of a sudden, 59 ounces is the weight limit, without surveying the membership. So this is up for discussion. There's going to be surveys that are coming out and this is the time to be heard and make sure that your input is out there, because that's what that change was put in place for, so the members can look at the survey results and see and make sure that the board is voting the way that you are hoping that they vote for, based on the influence that you're putting into the survey system and contacting them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a lot of people who have invested in limited optics guns. That would be upset if that division went away.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and the other side of that is that is that, um, is that if I have a limited optics gun and I have a magwell and I have my optics and all that stuff on there and a race holster and my extended pouches and and all of that, and all of a sudden it's now just going to be moving to carry optics. That means I need to downgrade my holster, downgrade my mag pouches, or if I'm in carry optics, am I at a disadvantage as a guy with a race holster? So now I gotta go and buy new gear right.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's the other thing that's being talked about is maybe in a couple years, you know, putting limited optics, merging limited optics with carry optics. But I think there's some significant rules changes that would have to happen, that need to be discussed, if that was going to happen.
Speaker 4:The other side of that, too, is that, while there's some folks running the ELO system, they're only looking at major match results. There's the entire classification system as well, your match results. Um, there's the entire classification system as well. And um, we only have a year of data on the limited opposites classifiers and um, you know, we're digging through some of that stuff, looking at them, comparing them to carry optics, looking at the differences between them, and there's there is a difference between the high hip factors that we're seeing between lo and co, especially in things that have reloads, because a magwell does make a difference um, and even even having conversations I had a long conversation with uh, with jj ricasa at the nra show about the differences between his performance with his Beretta open gun and his performance with a Limcat open gun, and if you want to talk to somebody who can tell you the difference between a custom built gun and a production gun, he's a very good person to tell you what his performance looks like.
Speaker 2:I mean I, when I have. I have been trying to get classified and limited optics, but I'm still. I'm just shooting my carry optics gun Glock, so I'm not gonna. I don't want to have a limited optics gun, get a custom limited optics gun until I know what the final division requirements are and if it's sticking around. But I think there's probably a lot of people in limited optics just shooting their carry optics guns right now too, just to get classified in it.
Speaker 4:They may not necessarily have a gun that they're gonna keep shooting in it I I can tell you that a lot of the small builders that I have talked to um are backed up on building 2011 optic guns and even the big builders that are out there springfield is their number one selling gun is the prodigy right. Um, the nighthawk guys are trying to keep up with demand of that. Staccato is continuing to produce that gun and even coming out with some variants of it. There's some other 1911 manufacturers that are going to be coming into the 2011 market in the very near future.
Speaker 2:I have the gun I want picked out. It's just it's got months lead time to get it and so I just haven't ordered yet because, like I said, I'm waiting to see where the division lands and then I'll invest.
Speaker 3:And I wonder if some of the data points that were brought up aren't what you were saying, jody, that you know it was carry optics got a shooting and the limited optics Right. Yeah, so that data may be skewed a little bit as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:There are definitely people that are chasing the classification.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:There are people that are chasing a classification. Yeah, there are people that are chasing a classification. They already were classified in carry optics and they want to go and get classified in limited optics. I mean, I did it PDP, the five inch polymer match gun with no magwell, um, and limited optics, because, uh, I had let my buddy Steve Wright, who was chasing his limited optics classification, shoot my prodigies. Um, he also helped me with my uh, uh, I was having some failures to fire with it because I failed to buy the extended firing pin. I bought the oversized firing pin, which is different than the extended firing pin. I know it was kind of a dumbass, yeah, well, oversized, extended it means the same thing, I thought. So I was having late primary strikes, so steve put his in there and ran it and then he was, uh, he was, he was shooting it and still challenged, and then there was a special classifier match here locally that he used. So, um, I did that and, um, I mean I know that I can pick up just about any gun and shoot within about 2% of that cold.
Speaker 4:But when I get behind a gun and I spend time on it and I focus on doing some training and actually tracking and doing some real stuff. Doing some real stuff. I shoot a 2011 or 1911 style single action gun faster and more accurate the more time I spend with it. Now I've bounced around from divisions quite a bit here recently and doing gun test reviews. I mean, I shot a Breda 92 GTS at Iptik Nationals of Production and then turned around and shot it at Optics with a polymer frame, pdp. You know. So it's For me to say I bounce around and then can do all that stuff.
Speaker 4:It's one thing, but if you spend time on a gun and you're married to a platform, you're going to get better with it. Um, and it's just race guns or race guns and they're always built around that same kind of platform. And if you look at the the dominating open guns, they're 2011 wide body high capacity guns. If you look at the dominating limited guns, they're 2011 wide body high capacity guns. If you look at the dominating limited guns, their 2011 wide body custom boat race oh yeah, yeah, there are, there's some. There's some anomalies out there. Yes, nils johnson went and can win limited. You know shooting a plastic gun and shooting minor, but you know he's also paid to go and do that yeah where if you go and ask him.
Speaker 4:If you ask him, he will tell you that shouldn't be a factor into people's decision making well, that's the whole.
Speaker 2:You know the whole argument of is it the indian or the arrow right? So it should probably not politically correct to say anymore, but the whole thing is the bow.
Speaker 2:Is the talented. You know the talented shooters like Nils Robbie Latham, you know Todd Jared, Jerry Mitchell, like they pretty much can pick up any gun and perform well with it. Jj, if they have enough time with the gun, get familiar with it, whereas the rest of us, we spend money thinking that buying an expensive open gun will make us help us move up in class, but in reality that isn't it.
Speaker 3:We got to practice and work on our skills right, and I touch on something again just to emphasize what what jake said and what you said jody 16-2 was put there specifically to engender uh, member input. Right, it's role changes and divisions are no longer an NROI thing, they're member input generated. So if you're a CO or a limited optics fan or you want to get into it, you need to, like Jake said, you need to contact your board members. You can email board at uspsaorg and hit them all, which gets me and Jake and a couple of other people as well.
Speaker 3:And if you have people that are sitting on the fence and never speak up, they are going to be letting whoever participates in these surveys drive what happens, right? So let's get involved. Whether you like it, hate it, don't care. That's what the board needs to hear so that they can make an informed decision, and it needs to be more than 10 to 12 percent of the membership that are contributing to that. So encourage your friends to participate in the survey, to send in comments with it, whatever, but let's get involved with it so that we're not driving a division somewhere that the majority of the membership doesn't like but didn't have a say in or didn't, you know. Take the time to have a say in, so it's important. It's just like voting for your area directors. Get out there and vote. I mean we've historically hit what? What was the highest we've ever had participation in a ever had participation in a USPSA election? Maybe 20%? Was it ever that high? 22?
Speaker 4:I think we came close to about 25% was the highest that I remember since being involved with the organization since 2014. So you got there's a survey that's out there, right? Yeah, that's. The other part of it is that even if you just think you're going to your local club match three times a year, it affects you, it affects that local club match and with the kind of unstableness of the board due to you know, people leaving and resigning and the voting and all that stuff going on, um, I get that there's some like, well, it doesn't make any difference, anyway, it does it. I can tell you it makes a difference. It does, I can tell you it makes a difference.
Speaker 4:And they do see the emails, they do read them. They may not respond to them, but they do see it. It does become a topic of conversation. I can tell you what they don't see post. Or in a Facebook post, the only person who sees that is me and I don't cut and paste and share all that stuff with the board. I mean there's just there's too much of it. So that is not the way to communicate. That's why they set up the board at USPSAorg email address so you can just simply type that and and get an email that hits all of the board members, the president myself, troy Rick, who else is on that? I think that's everybody that's on there right now. So basically everybody that participates in the board, call Right, yeah, when that position gets filled. So I mean, that's what that's for and they all see it.
Speaker 4:Instead of it just going to your individual area director and sometimes that's the best way to communicate too If it's something within your area or specific that you want to talk to your area director that you don't want the rest of them to see, then that's who you email. You know, area one at uspsaorg, area two at uspsaorg, but the the board at uspsa hits all of them. So you know they're supposed to be developing the survey questions. They extended the data collection period, at least. I mean. Basically it reads that they are going to do it through the end of the year, um to go on there, um, and there are some very specific timelines that are in 16-2 for existing divisions as well. So it's the information's there. You got to look for it a little bit. You know you log in, you go under, you go under member tab and you go to bylaws and you can then just search 16.2 and go read it. It's a very detailed layout for existing divisions and provisional visions of what steps are supposed to take place.
Speaker 3:All right, very good, anything else. We want to beat you on that horse about.
Speaker 2:I just reiterate if you don't, if you don't, provide your opinion, you can't gripe about the changes that were made. Well, you may still be able to get gripe about the change to be made, but our members, they like to just sit there, it's just. You may still be able to get a gripe about the changes to be made, but our members, they like to just sit there, it's just. You know, fill out the survey. I mean, they've moved to the survey system. It used to be only the people who actually took the time to contact the area director got heard, but now we have a survey system and the idea behind that is to make it easier for members to voice their opinions and to do it, you know, anonymously or whatever. So go out and, yeah, when the survey comes out, take it.
Speaker 4:you know be, there's one, there's a survey out there right now oh for the classification system yeah, that lasts until the 24th and it's really isn't. The easiest way to explain it is that this isn't a change to the classification system. This was nothing more than a change to the policy of what would count for classification for level two or level three match. The current policy was is that you had to have 50 people in a division and then the three GMs or more had to shoot 90% or higher at a level two and level three match. So what was happening was is that obviously in some of the divisions, especially at some level twos and even level threes and nation, obviously in some of the divisions, especially at some level twos and even level threes and nationals, for some of the divisions are not getting 50 people. So that was the first part of the question is should the 50 person criteria be lowered? And some of the questions are around should that be compared to appendix a2? Appendix A2 states that for a level two and level three match you need 10 people in a division and that is the criteria. And then there were some other questions that should it be 10, should it be 15, should it be 20? And then the other questions were around should it stay at three GM shooting 90% or higher? Or should it be three GM shooting 85% or higher? Or should you include master class? So the top three shooters, whether they were GM yet and carry optics or limited optics or limited or vice versa, they're GM and limited or something like that, but they may not have made that and then they go and they shoot 98% at a match as a master and that didn't count in the criteria. So there was some some of the feedback on it was like the questions didn't make a lot of sense and I mean the questions were written and they were sent to the board three or four times for them to review and change and update. Um, but that was the idea. Is that should it be less than 50 and should the criteria for the percentage? So if you go back and read them, it may make a little bit more sense trying to explain it. Um, but that poll closes on the 24th and there's only been about 22, 2,300 people, uh, that have participated in that survey.
Speaker 4:Now this affects people that want to shoot level two and level three matches. So if you're not interested in shooting a level two or level three match, maybe you want to participate in the survey. It doesn't mean right. Right now you may not be interested in going to your state or area match, but next year you may want to and you may think that that match should account as a classifier. And if you don't put your information out there and do the survey, you know that may not move forward. And the results are visible as the survey goes on, so you can see how other people are voting in there. That's the other kind of cool thing about it is is that it's not a hidden like. We took a survey and we're just going to tell you what it says. It's there for you to look at. The only thing that you can't see is other people's comments. I think we should turn that on so everybody can see what everybody's saying. But I was. I was told no, and it's if you can read the comments.
Speaker 3:Yeah's counter comments.
Speaker 2:So for those of you who want to know where to find the surveys, it's a static page where all surveys as they come available will be at it's USPSAorg slash surveys, so you have to be logged in to see it.
Speaker 1:All righty. Well, since we're talking about care optics and limited optics, let's skip an item on the agenda. Go down to so you're shooting care optics, so many optics and your optic falls off. You no longer you know. The division requires that you start with an optic and now you don't have an optic. So what happens to you and there's been some discussion about that- this is currently.
Speaker 3:I'll take it. There's currently an audit rules audit item and we're going to talk about it. There's a rules committee meeting this week, we're going to talk about that. But historically we've just told people that if it falls off during the course of fire, it just falls off. There's no bump to open because there's no optic on the gun. It's an equipment malfunction, competitor equipment malfunction and should not bump you to open because you're not gaining any advantage with it. The optic's off the gun. If you co-witnessed or you still have your own insights, I guess obviously you can shoot with that, but you're entitled to go repair that gun and come back and remain in the division and that can be because I mean optics plates break or they were poorly mounted or or some other reasons yeah, screws come loose.
Speaker 3:You know, who knows? I mean I was thinking about that the other day and thinking about the screws coming loose and I have a Holosun mounted on my PCC and I'll start a stage and it'll be fine. And then by the time I get to the end of the stage, sometimes it's wobbling all over on the rail Right and it's just mechanical. Stuff has vibrations. Vibrations are bad. Vibrations cause all kinds of problems and things loosen up and come out.
Speaker 2:And there's no way you can say well, yeah. Lock tight is your friend.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, but you can't lock tight that QD mount on a dot like that. I mean, it is your friend when you're screwing something into the slide, but I mean still, how many people really know what they're doing when they're using Loctite, you know?
Speaker 2:All these holes, and then I put Loctite in them.
Speaker 3:That's no good.
Speaker 2:I hear it's critical which color you choose.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, if you want to take it off again, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's what you have a Dremel for.
Speaker 2:A little solder gun on the screw with the red.
Speaker 1:You use a Dremel to break it and you use Loctite and JB Weld to put it back together.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you take it to Dremel. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So bottom line if the optic falls off, limited optics carry, carry optics and I'm pretty positive this is going to be a pass with the rules committee and then I'm going to issue a ruling for it so that it becomes law, so to speak. If it falls off during the course of fire, it is not a bump to open because there's no optic on the gun. It's simply compared to equipment malfunction. If they stop shooting, well, that's up to them. There's nothing the ro didn't. Shouldn't do anything, shouldn't create any action on that.
Speaker 3:If the optic falls off, it's just like if you're, I mean it's your site, right? So if your sites fall off and I've seen rear sites fly off, I've seen front sites fly off, oh yeah, um, you know, it's just deal with it, shoot the stage, whatever. So it you know if. What if your dot goes out? Well, nobody knows that except you, unless you're in the middle of a stage and you announce it. You know, and, and we've heard, we've all heard that, right, you know, my dot went out and so you're just looking through a glass lens and with no aiming point. Do you truly have an optic? By definition, yes, but it's not functional.
Speaker 1:I've had that happen, just a really big ghost ring Logical follow Right. It's a huge ghost ring.
Speaker 3:So the logical follow is that it's not going to be able to open.
Speaker 4:I think that's just extremely harsh to do for basically what's an equipment malfunction the only thing that you and I talked about was is that if it, if it posed a safety issue in the, in the case of you know, if it flies off and smack somebody in the face kind of thing which I have, I have witnessed. I have witnessed very, very close to my face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had. Yeah, or if they have a safety issue trying to fix it, Right?
Speaker 3:I mean, we have rules that cover that too. So yeah, and I mean, I don't think it's something you could fix inside the two minutes. We allow you to stop and fix anything, so you know if it's all right, that's why you carry duct tape with you.
Speaker 2:See, you just duct tape that little thing back on the slide. I mean the slide won't slide very well, but it's okay.
Speaker 4:It'll work. You've got to get that bin that has all of your Allen wrenches and torque wrenches that you don't know which one is which, and just carry that in your back pocket and just dump it out on the stage and just go to town and a crap ton of those little screws.
Speaker 3:Tell the RO here hold this. This isn't the right size.
Speaker 1:Go get, go get my readers. I can't tell if this is torque or something. Yeah, and don't forget your dremel, in case your screw is too long and goes all the way through the slide right so yeah, I think.
Speaker 3:I mean nobody would be super happy if you bumped them to open because their dot fell off you know it's in a dot required which is limited optics and carry optics.
Speaker 2:Now I mean I think having to finish the stage without it is punishment enough.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely yeah. So there's no, there's no reason for that. As long as you start the stage with the dot on the gun, you're good to go. Reason for that, as long as you start the stage with the dot on the gun.
Speaker 1:You're good to go. All right, we'll back up and grab the one on the agenda. Before that, we had a question come in and the guy was asking about he had a competitor that while he was attempting to reholster his gun he missed the holster and the barrel rotated uh, significantly. And he was wondering why we have you know the rules that we have that allow. You know, basically it's there to allow for candid holsters, but you know, distant, you know there's a disparity between how much you can go downrange versus uprange and, um, what you do with you know this situation, troy, I think you answered that one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the rule's like three feet and I mean that's always going to be sort of subjective because obviously we're not going to measure whether that muzzle is actually pointing to a point three feet behind your feet. But you can break the 180 that way. There is an allowance for the high cant holsters and for if you just miss a little bit and you're trying to fish around and get the gun into the holster and pro tip on that is, hey, look right, turn your head and look, look down, put your gun in your holster. Um, but some people are too intent. They're looking at a target as opposed to you know, and blindly trying to replace a gun in a holster. But if you point it backwards and or sweep the RO with it or whatever, then that's going to be a disqualification. So three feet is the general generally accepted distance and that's what's spelled out in the rule book specifically there for high cant holsters. Right, and by can't.
Speaker 3:I mean a holster that's tilted forward or backwards, um then then, if you're in that three foot distance, you're good, but if you're going to exceed that because you're fishing around for the holster, miss it whatever, or you're going backwards and and uprange, essentially unloaded or not, it's still a 180 break and that's going to be a going to be a dq yeah, I've had that question come up in in ro classes and people are there with like an fbi can't holster and they're like, well you know, doesn't that point more than three feet?
Speaker 1:and it's like, oh, grab a target stick, let's lay it alongside the top of the holster and go back down and measure it. And I think I figured out one time that a shooter would have to be over seven foot tall for that to break three feet. You know it looks pretty severe. I forget what FBI can is 15 degrees or something like that but it's not as bad as it looks and you'd have to really get carried away. Now you do see people trying to run holsters that are severely canted and those might be beyond three feet.
Speaker 2:Right, Per the internet it's 10 to 20 degrees is that FBI can't be observant.
Speaker 3:So, as an RO, be observant. Watch what the guy's doing with his holster. If he's not breaking that 3 foot distance, but he's still fishing for the entrance to the holster and he's not looking down at it. You might give him a little bit of gentle advice and say, hey, you know, you really should look down at your holster and place the gun in it, because sooner or later you're going to just point it back at me or somebody else and that's going to be the end of your day today.
Speaker 1:And don't use your fingers to fish around and find the holster and guide the gun in. You just swept yourself. Have a nice day.
Speaker 4:The other thing that I remind people is that holstering is not a timed event, so you do not have to race to get it in there either after the make ready or after the unload. Show clear holster, take your time and make sure the gun goes in there safely.
Speaker 2:Yep, the whole unload show clear is not on the clock, so you can take all your time to unload show clear that you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the way some people act.
Speaker 4:There's more. I have seen as many 180 DQs as people a drop gun trying to holster it. That's normally when it happens, yeah, and they're rushing to put it back in there after. Usually it's after the course of fire. Um, you don't have to run down there and see that target. You got two deltas on that quick.
Speaker 2:They'll still be there well, they're not going to go and score the target till you get your gun in the holster anyways, right, so take your time. I mean, I know, like my open gun, if I don't hit the, the block, just right, it doesn't get locked into the holster. And I've had one ro. He's held range of clear and I was still fiddling with the gun. I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, my gun's not holstered here. You know, let me fix that before you. Uh, like, I had someone ask me at area one um, so you know the race holsters with the shrouds that people are using and carry optics, yeah, you know, we've had. We had quite a few carry optic shooters come through with those. And you know, I just am programmed to not say range is clear until they're done fiddling with the lock or whatever on their holster. And he's like, well, with the ones with the shroud, there's really no risk of that gun, uh, falling out. Do you have to wait till they lock it to save range is clear?
Speaker 2:and I'm like it's just habit, yeah you know, I mean, yeah, if it's not quite in the little trigger block there, it's not going to go anywhere, but it's still not going to be properly holstered. And with those holsters you've got to make sure they lock and that's how you know it's properly.
Speaker 1:And if you're having problems holstering your handgun in your holster we know who is not doing dry fire.
Speaker 2:What's that? It's kind of like practice, only it's quieter. I hear about this dry fire and this practice thing. I thought you just shot matches it's quieter yeah, you know, I have noticed when I do take the initiative and dry fire a little bit before a match, I do shoot better. It's just having the time to do that said dry fire, so yeah yeah, yeah, time is not on my side.
Speaker 1:Um, let's see, and we got a question. We get this every once in a while. We've talked about it before, but let's, it's always good to go as as we head into the depth of the shooting season. What are the age requirements for participation in USPSA and Steel Challenge?
Speaker 3:So the simple answer is that we don't have any age requirement as long as, whatever the young person is can safely handle a gun, and obviously they have to have parental or guardian supervision while they're at a match and, you know, be whatever the law is for them handling a firearm or owning one or whatever it is.
Speaker 3:We don't get into the legal aspect of it, but they do have to have adult supervision and if they can safely handle the gun then they're good to go. Now there are places in the in the united states that set an age requirement. The most famous one I know of is cmp at talladega and their age requirement is 10 years old. So if you have a nine-year-old uh shooting, absolute shooting prodigy that's going to show up and shoot world speed shooting championship and and um, you know, come and clean everybody's clock Uh, unfortunately that person's not going to be able to shoot there because you have to be 10 and that's not our rule, that CMPs rule. But um, and and Jake knows this CMP has its own board of directors and people that control things there and that's one of their rules and if we break that rule then we're not welcome back. So that cuts an entire facility out of our, out of our library of facilities we can go to. So we try to make that clear for that, because there are there are more younger uh, younger people shooting still challenge than there are kind of USPSA, but it still holds true, no matter what kind of match is being held there. I don't know of any other ranges that have an age requirement in the country. Maybe some of you guys do, but I don't. But C&P is kind of famous and ask me why I know that. Well, I know that because we kind of got into trouble a few years ago because we had a kid that was under 10, and we didn't know that she was under 10, and we also didn't know that CMP had a 10-year-old age requirement until the match was over with. So it was done. You know, done, done, water under the bridge. But we did have a little bit of a discussion with the CMP folks about that. So we try to make sure that everybody knows. You got to be at least 10 years old to come out and participate at CMP and that doesn't matter what you're shooting. You can't go on a high-power range if you're under 10 years old. I mean shoot under 10 years old. So no age requirements for USPSA. You just have to be able to safely handle a gun, have adult supervision and good to go right.
Speaker 3:I have seen some kids with guns that were probably a little too heavy for them. So you know if your youngster's looking at a great big, heavy, open gun because they think it's really cool but they can't really lift it and they can't shoot it with one hand, then you might want to think about going to polymer frame something, and you know you can go where they call it welfare open. You could put a cop on it with a dot and you know, shoot nine mil. But um, it's. There's nothing really wrong with that. I'm not picking on people that do that, but uh, it might be an alternative if they really wanted to shoot that open gun. But they can't hold that big old heavy gun up and some of those things are bricks, you know, yep well, yeah, so we had our sectional last year.
Speaker 2:We had a young shooter, um, she was shooting a polymer frame gun, but her dad, she couldn't shoot a single one-handed and I was working the stage where you had to shoot one handed and he's like she's just gonna shoot two handed and take the penalties, you know, because he wanted her to shoot but he knew that she was not capable to do that safely and that's the smart way to do it. Kids have to be safe and he acknowledged her limitations. Yeah.
Speaker 4:That's. That's always what, when I've been asked, is they have to be able to manipulate the gun through the entire course of fire safely so they may be able to go with dad, mom or uncle or grandpa to the range and stand there with your 22 at the bench and shoot it just fine after they put the mag in port and they rack the slide and they unload it for them. But until they're able to do that that's always kind of the caveat that I throw out there they have to be able to safely manipulate that firearm from beginning to end in the course of fire without any assistance. To end in the course of fire without any assistance, and that kind of gives them an idea of what they need to be able to do. And that's where that limitation kind of comes in. If they can't load it and rack the slide, that becomes that kind of problem for them. And that's the age barrier. There's no age on it, but that's kind of the barrier that I've always set out there in total.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's why Steel Challenge is such a great starting ground for young people. You've got your rimfire divisions that allow them to. You know, shoot guns with less or almost no recoil, they're typically easier to manipulate. They don't have the big strong recoil springs that you have to overcome to rock the slide and so on. It's a really good place for them to start and then they can work into the centerfire divisions and once they're able to do that, then they can move up to uspsa.
Speaker 1:There is nothing wrong with, or, you know, shameful about, just shooting steel challenge to get your chops in, and that's you know. You know, I think, as some of us as we get, some of us as we get older, steel challenge is where we're going to go back to, because there's not a lot of movement and you're not having to go prone and get down on your knees and things like that. So it's a, it's a good place to to, you know, to be, uh, if you know, if you're just, if you just want to shoot and don't necessarily have the physicality to handle USPS aid.
Speaker 4:It's also for people that don't do that dry fire thing that Jody was talking about the absolute best practice that you can get for USPSA, because it's draws and transitions, transitions and steel challenge you can't fake them.
Speaker 1:No, no, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I say that to a lot of people that come up and say, oh still, challenge is boring. I don't know why people shoot it. Well, here's the thing Jet Transitions draws sights on the plate. Trigger control, right, I mean. All of that is tested if you're going to go fast in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean it does build your fundamental skills, sure, and it's good and you know, and like when 22 ammo you know was cheap, then it kind of got expensive. I think it's cheap again. But I was shot steel challenge and while it was a good way to go out and get some trigger time relatively cheap and it's also for me I had a really big problem with um dipping the front of the gun down on my centerfire guns because I was anticipating the recoil. And shooting the 22 helped me break myself of that because it's got a lot less recoil and you know I would just helped. So I mean I like steel challenge. Yeah, it's kind of boring, but it does really give you good practice on your fundamentals and that's why I like it I don't.
Speaker 3:I don't find it boring to shoot, I find it boring to range. Master, there is that I knew. I knew it was coming.
Speaker 4:I knew it was coming.
Speaker 1:I knew it was coming.
Speaker 3:I mean I don't object to Rangemaster, I've only had to wake you up on your four-wheeler once or twice.
Speaker 4:Hey hey, they're calling for lunch. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Wake me up for lunch, I mean occasionally you have an issue that needs to be done, like a scoring call Very few DQs, right yeah, Scoring calls, equipment calls, equipment swaps, stuff like that. But it is kind of boring if you're a range master in it, because you just don't get a lot of action. But you know, if you're RO in it, I mean you're certainly running shooters all day long.
Speaker 2:It's a really good way to practice your range commands.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yes, because you get a lot of them you got. It's a really good way to practice your range commands, absolutely yes.
Speaker 2:You get a lot of them. You got to say them a lot of times.
Speaker 4:And and coming up with world speed next week to keep track as an RO, to keep track of some of the hits that these guys and girls are doing is. I mean, I've stood there and I'm like Bob, I think. I think they all all overshot, I don't, I don't know, because they're just so quick it's.
Speaker 2:It's amazing to watch that's why you work as a team. You know especially like I worked outer limits the last time I worked a stage, and when they start moving I gotta watch the gun. So I'm relying on my scorekeeper to help me watch target engagement showdown, or showdown is the one yeah whichever one has the movement that's outer.
Speaker 4:Limits that's outer limits yeah, showdown is.
Speaker 4:Showdown is the three from one box, two from the other. Right, but the engagement sequence that's actually probably especially for the low ready divisions, um, because those before you hear the hit on the back plate, they've already hit the two. Oh yeah, oh yeah. So it just starts to. I mean, you can't do that normal bing, bing, bing, bing. You can, and if you're, and if you're at world speed long enough, you can stand back and be like that's smoke and hope, just from the cadence yeah, from the cadence yeah hi everybody.
Speaker 1:This is Kevin M Long. The episode that you've just been listening to ended up going long, to say the least. We went two plus hours. That's too much to throw into a single podcast. So what we're going to do is we're going to split that in half, and so this is part one, and part two will come out next. So stay tuned for that. And again, as usual, at the end of the podcast, I always remind you. If you have any questions, comments or ideas for the podcast, please send them to rules at USPSAorg. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode © transcript.
Speaker 4:Emily Beynon.